Author Topic: 7 Days  (Read 2773 times)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #90 on: April 16, 2006, 09:06:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Oh geeze, Toad.
[/b]

Ok, you're irked. You still got jack to say.

You line up 7 events that you find cataclysmic and wonder why everyone else isn't running around shouting "Fire! Fire!".

Here's a thought... maybe it isn't "everyone else". Maybe it's you. Eh? Possible? Of course NOT! YOU have the POWER.. YOU have the INSIGHT.

I'll be glad to talk about any one or all of those points. After you point out your position and what you think should be done.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #91 on: April 16, 2006, 09:09:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Yup. For sure. You can gauge it by the desperation.

You can gauge it by the fear talkin'.

You can gauge it by what isn't said.

 


What a world you live in.

:rofl

You're not taking a creative writing course right now by any chance are ya?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2006, 09:12:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
That's noble and everything, but guys like me told you repeatedly that it was a very very bad idea to effing break it in the first place!
 




Quote
Originally posted by Nash, 05-01-2003 10:22 PM
I didn't see the thread where the clock had started... but I assume it goes for our wager also Toad (or whenever u want)?

As far as I'm concerned, *everyone* was going on guesses. Due to that, bragging about any which way this turned out (and will turn out) is absurd.

"I was right, you were wrong" is the same as saying "Gee aint I smart - neither of us had any information, but I made a better guess than you". So I think it's silly to see or do any bragging on it.


Heh.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2006, 10:20:25 AM »
LOL nash... you are starting to foam at the mouth...  your agenda get's expossed and you can't take it?

You have allways endorsed democrats.  everyone here knows it...  you don't endorse independents..  

You are simply a mirror image of me.   I vote independent and support independents (libertarian only) when it looks like they have a chance to win or..... when the democrats are a sure loser no matter who I vote for..

you do the same in a mirror image... you give lip service to "iondependents" when you think it will hurt republicans and you "vote" (if you could vote, in your case...it is advocate for) you "vote" for independants when it is positive that the socialist democrats will get in..

The only difference between our philosophies is that you are not honest about it.

You hate republicans and you love liberal socialists.    I hate both but just like you....

I see that liberal socialist democrats and republicans are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

What people mean when they say that I have a point is that.... everyone including you knows that democrats have a liberal socialist agenda.

You are trying (in a rather sneaky and dishonest way) to push their agenda by attacking the only other party that has a chance to defeat them.

now of course, you know all this and I know all this and everyone who has ever read either of us knows all this..

just thought it would be nice to get it out in the open.

lazs

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2006, 10:24:47 AM »
Contrary to people being contrary for sake of being contrary, there is a common thread in all this that crosses party and national boundry lines: a democracy gap.

A gap between what people in modern democracies, republic or parliamentary, expect and want for their society from their government, and what they get. No one here is getting what they want from their employees - government workers and legislators.

Better yet, let's call them by their rightful name, the democracy aristocracy.

While people are consuming the image of a "democracy-flavored" drink marketed to them the same way dishwashing liquid is sold, they are, in reality, just getting artificially-flavored sugar water to appease them. Keep everyone busy enough saluting their nations flag (whatever colors) and evoking (undefined) 'patriotism' and they won't have time to consider if there is any substance behind the style.

The US is getting older. It's reaching middle age as a country. European countries and cultures had to go through a transition in government styles as resources and economics changed from territorial limits, and long-standing traditions and cultures became entrenched. The US started and expanded into areas of enormous resources, not just the land.

The engines and resources for growth are starting to change in the US, just like it did for smaller countries before. The bureaucracy and aristocracy of governing is growing in the US as fast as it did in Europe. There are more Department of Homeland Security employees than there are active duty US Navy.

Government sector spending has gone from about 22% of GDP after WWII drawdown, to 44% of GDP. It all comes out of the private sector, which is now only about 55% of GDP.

The government industry is:

 - double the size of the construction industry.

 - bigger than the entire information sector including broadcasting, movies, music, publishing, tele-communications and information technology.

 - bigger than the entire real estate industry, including rental and leasing.

 - dwarfs the entire health care industry.

 - double the entire retail trade industry.

 - bigger than all of the banking, finance, investment and insurance industries combined.

No one set out to manufacture this system, it just happens in all societies as they age, democratic or authoritarian, and people consolidate their power in mutual-assistance groups. The "democracy-flavored" drink is an advertised illusion of democracy, but the reality is that it is a "velvet-gloved" feudalism. You don't really have any power to change anything, you just think you do.

Democratic politics is power, derived from money and the purest example of the "Golden Rule" in action: the men with the gold make the rules.

Will the US move even closer to looking like the older European cultures as it ages, except bigger? Probably. The high percentage of "authorities" and their aristocratic rule will see to it. It's in their interest. Government workers are now better compensated than private-sector employees doing comparable work, contrary to what their marketing tries to portray, thus they are truly aristocrats - they control 44% of the entire economy (they hold the gold), and they make the rules. A ruling class.

It was interesting to read some of the comments people made about the French students demonstrating (and winning) recently. They weren't just a bunch of spoiled, lazy, socialist kids. They got a bad rap from the American press mischaracterizing their purpose.

They were motivated to action to force their government to do what they wanted, not what the bureaucrats and corporations wanted. They acted to close the democracy gap.

Corporations act in the best interest of the stockholder, not in the best interest of the people who do the work. In all cases, the stockholders win. They would have been discarded and replaced with a fresh batch of kids when they reached the upper age limit of the program, layed off in a whim for short-term profit, forced to accept longer hours at lower wages and eroding benefits, all take and no give.

Have you ever heard of any government workers accepting pay cuts or reduced benefits?

If they were American, you would have supported and admired them for their spirit and guts to act, and not just accept what the government, in concert with business, was forcing down their throats. They put a line in the sand and said that they were not going to accept being turned into disposable drones in the name of "globalization." There would be a movie-of-the-week about them. Off-topic, so I'm sorry. And sorry about the length of this.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2006, 10:33:19 AM »
Rolex... remove social security and medicar and medicade and welfare and see how much the government grows..  cut taxes 5% a year.  

As far as democracy?  I am not a big fan of democracy.   I believe in democracy only with a strong constitution with human rights spelled out clearly and in strong terms.  

I do not want to go the way of the euros...  we left there because of their ways.   There is no where else to go.

We have to fight the nash's here or nowhere.

lazs

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #96 on: April 17, 2006, 07:07:05 PM »
You are tilting at windmills Nash.
====
Urchin,

Just curious...what does it mean when nash tilts at windmills?

Im trying to get a visual on this and the picture just dont look right?

Are you saying he is wasting his time?
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Offline Urchin

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« Reply #97 on: April 17, 2006, 07:36:06 PM »
Yes, it means he is wasting his time.  

The reference is to Don Quixote.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #98 on: April 17, 2006, 07:57:07 PM »
thanks Urchin.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Nash

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« Reply #99 on: April 17, 2006, 09:55:59 PM »
Wow... it rises.



All  'cuz somebody doesn't know a Cervantes reference that's been basically universal for, oh, the last 400 years. I think I'll be taking my political advice from someone else, thank you very much.

A few quick things; housekeeping as it were. Toad, you've posted that quote of mine a few times now, and I'm always confused about what point you're trying to make by doing it. Yes, I said that it'd be wrong to brag about the guesses involved in going to war. But, I also haven't bragged about those guesses.

Ya see, the quote that you fail resurrect is the one posted at around the same time, where I also said that it is utter folly to take a nation to war based on guesses. Winning a bet based on WMD or the lack thereof is nothing to write home about. Supporting a war based on such unknowns? Well, that's where the problem begins, and that's what you will have to live with.

In other words, I was only right about WMD (as compelling as the lack of evidence was), because you were wrong. It could have gone either way. I seriously doubted it, but still...

The mistake was to support such a thing. Here's a hint:

The next time you have to, like, bet someone on the internets on who is going to be right regarding the basis of going to war, then war is probably not a good idea at that point.

Comprende?

Oh, and.... lazs? Why would I bother? You get all crazy, pointing fingers and accusing me of doing something in this thread, and then when it's pointed out that in fact you were the one doing it, the only one, you start in with the usual gibberish 'liberal socialist' ranting. So how can I help ya, buddy?

Btw, it's just baffling to me..... it always is.... to see such a well crafted post such as Rolex's get responded to with this, I don't know what to call it... the 'Archie Bunker Treatment,' or something.... from somebody like you. He's got more brains in his left nut than your entire family does combined.

Doe Rae Me Fa So La Dee Da.

"Just curious...what does it mean when nash tilts at windmills?"

"Im trying to get a visual on this and the picture just dont look right?"

"Are you saying he is wasting his time?"

Offline Toad

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« Reply #100 on: April 17, 2006, 10:30:35 PM »
Why don't you post that old statement then Nash. I sure don't remember it quite that way.

I didn't have to bet. The bet actually was to make a point about those who were so SURE there were no WMD. There were several folks spouting off about how SURE they were that SH didn't have WMD. They were CERTAIN.

But NONE of them would wager a tiny sum like 3 months of AH on their certainty. Nobody wanted to take the "easy money" from me.

You took the bet but at least admitted you weren't certain.

So, that was the purpose of the bet; it was a "call" to prove a point, one which you acknowledged. No one was "certain".

Oh, and from my POV, you HAVE bragged about your guesses. Perhaps you'll point me towards some posts that show you're not bragging now?

It strikes me that maybe YOU don't remember what I said back then.

Here

Quote
Originally posted by Toad 02-27-2003 08:10 AM
I'm aware of the Iraqi uprisings.

I still say you can't "give" a people their freedom.

No Revolution ever had bleaker prospects than the American Revolution. Your country was the "superpower" of the time and the 13 colonies were insignificant in comparison. The Revolutionaries lost battle after battle with horrendous (for that time and that source population) losses.

But they didn't give up.

Would the troops of Saddam Hussein shoot their own families if the families were all out in the street?

Against my personal beliefs and judgement, the US & Britain probably will "liberate" Iraq and depose Saddam.

I'll wager you right now that the US/British post war attempt to initiate a democracy in Iraq is going to cost more soldiers lives than the actual "war phase". You've already outlined the reasons why this is going to be extremely difficult in another post and I agree with your reasoning.

This is the wrong war at the wrong time, even though the reason behind it is basically correct. IMO.


JB, as for the Balkans, I believe you'll find the "anti" crowd pointing to Caspian oil, approximately five billion in mineral deposits and the second largest European deposit of lignite coal (17 billion tons) in Kosmet. To a cynic, there is no honorable intent.


And this one, same thread: 02-27-2003 10:56 AM

Quote
And, while I hate to sound like some of those folks reknowned for their inability to accept obvious fact, I have yet to see an incontrovertible linkage of Iraq to 9/11. If there were one, I would happily join in the rush to war, but I haven't seen one as yet.

Iraq's disregard for the UN is quite obvious. However, I personally don't find that a cause for an attack on a sovereign nation by the United States that could possibly be justified by "just war theory". Now, WITH a UN mandate to make Iraq comply, that would be different.

But without that, I can't support it. The US is about to become an "aggressor" nation in the same way Iraq did when Iraq invaded Kuwait without provocation. That's my opinion, and it sickens me to think that the US is going to become what we have fought against for so long.

What US civilian lives lost can you trace directly to Iraq? I'll step up and say we need a definitive "traceable" act against us in order to justify this war.

UNLESS the Security Council asks the US to make Iraq comply with the UN/SC resolutions. And that obviously isn't going to happen.

I'm sorry, much as I hate the idea of Hussein remaining in control and murdering and starving his own people..... I don't want to see the US become an agressor nation.
[/b]

I think you have forgotten my position and substituted one of your own making.

Perhaps you remember this one though? I seem to recall you got a copy of the letter.



HERE


Quote
Originally posted by Toad 10-06-2004 09:57 PM

I believe we've discussed this before.

While I'm sympathetic to the idea that establishing a true democracy (or two) in the Middle East would indeed be a good thing for the world, I'm totally unsympathetic to the idea that the US can invade a sovereign nation and remove its government without having a reason that is valid under Just War theory.

Had they found WMD, I think that could be construed as such a reason.

I admit I was willing to give the administration the benefit of the doubt on their WMD claims and I did support the invasion at that time.

However, at that time I also stated that WMD would have to be found at some point in order for me to continue to support the administration's sending our sons and daughters to war. I also stated that if WMD's were not found, the President would have to be held accountable for invading a sovereign nation without just cause.

I have written my Congressional Representatives about this and I will not vote for Bush.

I won't vote for Kerry either. So, I'm Libertarian this time around.

Like Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that.



Maybe you are tilting at windmills and ones you constructed at that. Or is that a strawman you're chopping up?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #101 on: April 17, 2006, 10:35:00 PM »
BTW, do you actually want to discuss your list at the beginning of the thread or did you just toss it out as bait?

I'll help you out here: What do you think about Powell after reading that quote?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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« Reply #102 on: April 17, 2006, 11:29:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I didn't have to bet. The bet actually was to make a point about those who were so SURE there were no WMD. There were several folks spouting off about how SURE they were that SH didn't have WMD. They were CERTAIN.


"... those who were so SURE there was no WMD?"

How about the folks who were so "SURE" that there was WMD? Like, oh, I don't know... you?

Hmm... Excuse me if I'm mistaken, but back then you were trying to have us all believe that you knew somebody on the "inside" who supposedly "knows what he's talking about."

"The bet actually was to make a point..." - Toad.

Yeow! Dammit Toad, are you trying to make a funny?

If anybody was coming off as "SURE," it was you... and that's when the bets started happening. I was only fortunate enough to wiggle in on one of them.

To me, it just looked like guesses... by everyone. You merely guessed that your "inside" guy knew what he was talking about.

And now you're gonna sit here and have us all believe that your bets were motivated by nothing other than to force the fence sitters amongst us to put their money where their mouth was? Hell, you were choking on yours.

Me? The whole thing looked and sounded retarded. Like a circus. Powell's UN speech resembled a man who had taken three days of juggling classes, and was then expected to enter the biggest talent show of his entire life.

Nothing. Added. Up.

And I took your money.

Still.... it was all guesses by us. Of course! And I stand by my words that when it comes to guesses, it is probably just not a good idea to put people's lives on the line for them. I wouldn't do it as CIC, and I wouldn't support it as Joe Blow.

Finally, it's great that you post all these quotes of yours in an attempt to put distance between yourself and this mess. While I respect your writing ability, Toad, I aint about to let you rewrite history.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 01:16:21 AM by Nash »

Offline Nash

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« Reply #103 on: April 17, 2006, 11:44:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I'll help you out here: What do you think about Powell after reading that quote?


While I couldn't even begin to imagine the forces tugging on a person at that level, I have this naive expectation that good men rise up and call a spade a spade, the second they recognize one.

Silly me, though.

The more I hear him talk about what he didn't do, the more I lose respect for him.

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #104 on: April 17, 2006, 11:57:27 PM »