ATF abuse their power..... again.

[Cynic]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
The problem is that the ATF and the DEA continuously overstep their bounds and regret nothing about it.  The question is not when will they do it again.  The question is how big of a **** up will the next one be? [/B]

Let see, Ruby Ridge, Waco. Is there some way it can get worse? I'm still not convinced the two are without merit, entirely, they're just poorly run.

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by Cynic
I think it does. Well documented gives a clearer argument.  Arguments from the gut don't work well.



Let's see, he's running around, masked (not bandanaed, fully masked), covered in black, looking suspicious, acting suspicious.  Would I not have a gun ready in case he had one?  Oh, I would.  I'm not betting my life on the possibility he's just playing.  The knee on the neck? It's a restraint measure.  It sucks, but it's a good thing he didn't have a toy gun that looked real. He'd be dead.  Would you consider the cops shooting someone for leveling a toy gun at them criminally negligent?  How about a real gun? In a second, an LEA (law enforcement agent) could be dead from the hesitation.

Would you approach someone looking like that, acting like that and ask them WTF?  It's hard to say, but I also don't know anyone who's been shot surprising an armed assialant. My opinion would probably change if I did, or worked in a profession where the story goes about the LEA  that didn't think any of it, lost his life.



You jump on the word crushed, saying his rights were violated. Pretty strong words.  When you use words that strong, you need to make sure your argument is well documented, because a sloppy argument is easily shot down.

Here is a final clue for you. I have been around this board a long time. This was not an argument thread; it was an information thread for my fellow gun owners on the board. Many of whom feel the ATF has outlived it’s usefulness and is a threat to our freedom.  

And it was a bandana; did you even read the story?

“Agents noticed someone wearing a bandanna across the face and acting in a somewhat suspicious manner, peeping around the corner,” said ATF special agent in charge Vanessa McLemore.

I cut that right from the story you claim to have read.


I see you are still trying to justify acting like a child. Why don't you just say “Sorry I should have kept is civil” instead of trying weasel your way out of your actions?  

If my sloppy argument was so easy to shoot down(even though I was not making one, I was making a statement) why did you resort to 3rd grade tactics instead of just shooting it down.

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by Cynic
Let see, Ruby Ridge, Waco. Is there some way it can get worse? I'm still not convinced the two are without merit, entirely, they're just poorly run.

"I'm still not convinced the two are without merit"

And this is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.  If you decide to use the 10 IQ points you have left, give me a ring, I'd be glad to embarass you again.

[Cynic]

Originally posted by GtoRA2 I cut that right from the story you claim to have read.

You quoted it, "across the face."  Not across the forehead or around the neck.

[Cynic]

Originally posted by lasersailor184

Ok, let's go back to the word 'again.'

Waco and ruby ridge aside, mind you.

LEAs all over this country are guilty of overstepping some juridiction, legal or moral boundary again and again.  Why home in on the DEA and ATF?  What's different?  Federal jurisdiction?  

Are you pro-Patriot act?  If not, don't you worry about another terrorist attack?  If yes, I ask why against a federal agency that is there to enforce it against terrorist attacks (the kid was pretty much dressed like them that hide their faces).

Right now, all I've heard is "they" stepped out of order again, so they should be disbanded, but that happens all the time in local agencies.  How many police beatings have you heard about in your city?  We've had a few inthe past few years here.

I'm really trying to figure out why singling out the ATF and DEA, when so many others are guilty of the same thing.

What they did to that kid is on par with some of the news stories I've read of local law enforcements actions.

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by Cynic
You quoted it, "across the face."  Not across the forehead or around the neck.

Cynic said

not bandanaed, fully masked

Here I will do the FULL quote one more time...

“Agents noticed someone wearing a Bandanna  across the face and acting in a somewhat suspicious manner, peeping around the corner,” said ATF special agent in charge Vanessa McLemore.

See the big Bandanna in the quote? Notice how it does not say mask?


Look at it again.

It is still says bandanna.


Even if it had been a full mask, that is not illegal.


Also notice he was not charged with anything.

Do I need to put those parts in big quotes as well?

I think it is pretty safe to say these ATF guys over reacted and detained this kid for no reason at all.

[Suave]

Originally posted by Sandman
Story aside, why does the ATF exist?

 

To extort money from the alcohol and tobacco trade, and to enforce domestic arms control. And to investigate and prosecute american noncomformity, especially when private owned firearms or bandanas are involved.

And it appears now that we should get our ensemble cleared with them before leaving our house now.

So I guess it's ok for citizens to point guns at kids wearing unamerican head garments. I mean it's legal right? Law enforcement isn't above the law right?

[Cynic]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Cynic said
 
Even if it had been a full mask, that is not illegal.

Not illegal, suspicious. The LEAs have the authority to arrest someone on reasonable suspicion.  A bandanna covering the face in nice weather is pretty suspicious.

Also notice he was not charged with anything.

Happens all the time by local and fed.  They took him in, questioned him, realized he was goofing around and released him.

[StarOfAfrica2]

[Fishu]

"Agents noticed Ransom peering around a corner and said when police sirens sounded, he took off running."

Meh.. the agents in the picture couldn't catch a granny, even less a fleeing student, yet they somehow catched him from fleeing? yeah right.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by SOB
You may love living with terrorists GTO but some of us know better-If he had nothing to hide he shouldnt be covering up his face- I suppose you think it's OK to be walking the streets after dark too! WAKE UP PEOPLE THE TERRORISTS ARE OUT THERE AND THEY LIKE WEARING CLOTH ON THEIR HEADS SO THIS IS A TOTALLY SMART ACTION BY THE POLICE!!!!!!1

You're just upset that they don't make childrens ninja costumes in extra huskey size.  

[Mini D]

The ATF is a bunch of monumental ****ups. During the ruby ridge/Waco era, they even managed to get a few people killed in Portland by ineptly trying to arrest someone who then managed to get to his car and drive off killing 2 people when he ran a red light 3 blocks away. All from a convenience store parking lot... I beleive they had cars blocking the entrance/exit and thought they'd "Boxed him in" because he would have had to drive over some barkdust to escape.

But... what collection of law enforcement personel at a training convention would not have done the same thing in this situation?

This story is not an example of federal agencies gone awry. This story is an example of law enforcement being in an unusually precarious position of being expected to stop crimes before they happen.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Cynic
Let's just arm the public and let them shoot it out.  Whoever's still standing, inherits the earth.

Works for me.

[Hangtime]

BATFE (they added the final 'e' for explosives a few months back) is dangerous because it's the 'administrations monkey'.  Example.. The Klinton Years... abuses of power in pursuit of legal gun owners, Ruby Ridge, Waco... Lately it's been pretty quiet.. since Boooosh called 'em off the necks of the legal gun owners. We get another Democrat Gun Hater in the Office... it'll be like the Klinton Years again.

No administration or Attorney General needs it's own police force. The whole department should be disbanded.

Cynic... *yawn*

If yah think yer pot stirring escapades in the OClub will earn you a crowd of Cynic Haters for you to play with in the game..


Yah came to the wrong place. Try over in the General Discussion forum.


Meanwhile... if yer really serious about a fight; just stuff yer head up yer bellybutton and fight fer air.

[lazs2]

sandie... the ATF are tax men.  they enforce tax laws on ciggs and guns and booze.   First they were just booze (revenuers) but like all good government agencies they seen a chance to grow when the 1935 tax on machine guns, silencers and sawed off shotguns was passed.

They send 300 agents to a cabin in Idaho to get that $5 tax that wasn't paid on a shotgun that had the stock (maybe) cut 1/8" too short.   course.... some people can die but.... taxes are important.

They probly had to pass at least 1,000 or more illegal aliens to get there besides.

When Reagan tried to disband the agency he ran afoul of federal hireing laws (had to find other places to put the out of work agents)

Reagan said... "no problem we will absorb them within the other federal law enforcement agencies"   No agency would take ATF agents.  

We still have em because they have no where to go.    They are really bad value for the money.  

lazs