Best fighter for immediate combat?

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Murdr
Please keep in mind that a deterent to new players staying with AH is its steep learning curve.  Giving advise on how to do things the hard way without also mentioning there is a easier way does not encourage newer players to stick through the frustration to build a skill set.

People who are genuinely interested in this game will stick with it.  We all did, didn't we?  The ones who quit because they are frustrated that they can't get kills, or that they are getting killed, are the "Quake mentality" players who aren't going to stay here long anyway.

This is not an easy game to learn.  It will never appeal (for very long) to people who aren't willing to put in the time and agony to become proficient at it.  I'm a big proponent of vets helping new folks, and I hope I do my own part.  But I don't think that new players should be treated like spoiled children who have to be coddled to keep them from running away.

- oldman

[Murdr]

Classifieds:  Oldman Beginners Drivers Ed School-  Classes meet on the Washington DC beltway at 5 pm.  Class vehicles will be manual transmission only.  Classes will wrap up downtown at 9 pm with parallel parking an H1 Hummer, and making a 3 point turn with an 18 wheeler.

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by SVIGGEN
I agree with TequillaChaser. If u read the posts ate SIMHQ Forum, you will see why most people switch to Il2 Series Eventually-the quake mentality makes oldtimers sick and tired of the sim sooner or later, adn they quit.

We lost one last night. XBullX has decide to call it quits in favor of the new kids. I asked him why and he mentioned the reasons which don't need to be voiced by me.

At some point the trolls and everyone's ideas about how the game should be played "thier" way will push more of the old guard from the game. And these are the bread and butter folks who've always paid their bills on time. I'm not so sure youngin's are in for the long haul.

While the trainers sure do appreciate the help of the community, and I mean that sincerely, it's one thing to help us bring new folks up to speed but something entirely different to come into the training forums an spout out their personal way of doing something. They have lotsa opportunity to take someone aside and tell them how "they do it". The trainers must deal with getting the new folks up to speed quickly by teaching the correct procedures for the game. As they learn, you like all the vets flying, they will learn their own style and way of doing things. We just want to get them up flying and fighting sucessfully so they can have fun like the rest of us do.

Another facet of the game that aids new folks in coming up to arena speed are the AH2 Squadrons. Many are fine groups with vets who are also available to bring new folks along in the game. A big WTG to all the trainers within the squads!

IMHO if you are only here to trash other players please do so outside of the Help and Training Forum and Training Arena.

Thanks

[mars01]

See Rule #5

[Simaril]

"AirQuake" behavior is not the product of how new guys are taught.

Its the natural consequence of the incentives built into the design of Aces High, compounded slightly by the fast action nature of the last generation or two.

"AirQuakers" (hmmm... does taht mean they're pacifists?) are more often than not capture people, because there are REASONS to haul a trio of lancs against a CV 10x straight, regardless of you r own deaths, when you're trying to save a base. There are REASONS to go on a one way trip into enemy territory when you're killing troops. There arent reasons for a lover of ACM to repeatedly enter a truly hopeless (as opposed to challenging) situation.

The capture game is FAR more sensitive to the design decisions HTC made for the MA, especialy since HT's repeatedly said he's made the flight model his top priority. Even if the trainers spread their message to every player, the MA will not change much -- since even a fighter trained guy will HAVE to behave certain ways if he wants to play the base capture game.

So while I greatly respect the trainers' efforts, and I still actively seek their help, I firmly believe that they cannot reshape the way the MA operates. Trainers help fighter jocks learn their art. They cannot change the way the land gamers play, because that behavior is 100% determined by HTC.

And to be honest, I think the MA's design is better optimized for 300 players than for 600. With that many defenders, the ONLY way to break a stalemate is with the horde.

Period.

SO guess what we see?

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by mars01
I can respect what you posted here TC et-al, but the question was dealing with upping from a vulched field.  So with that said, coming in here and condeming doing it doesn't seem to benefit the original poster.

rgr Mars, I posted the following, to give my opinion/answer in my second posting, seeing how I overlooked answering the original poster's question in my first post:

Yes Sir Vudak, the Thread poster asked a valid question, .......I was not trying to carry it away from the original posters question either.....

I should give my response on the original posters question .........if you feel the need to up from a capped field I say go with the Niki ( for its cannons ) or the IL2, strange plane but from my experience it offers a valid threat to vulchers......
3rd choice would be an Fm2 or a F6f then even the Hurri2c.....

I proceeded to explain what would also be best to do if you was to be upping from a capped field, and then seconded a few others opinions of even better was to up from the next field over and come in with some E and vulch the vulchers......

Mars, I am a stickler for people being taught "Correct ways / tactics" vs people being taught "incorrect ways / tactics". I have always found it easier to teach people things the right way, then to have to Re-Teach them and make them forget all the bad habits they have picked up along the way.

I can respect everyones opinion, yours, his, hers, him over there, but if I see something I think is not right, then I will call it out,  yes he asked about best plane to up from a capped field, yes I said the right thing to do was not up from a capped field, ala vulch me once shame on you, vulch me twice shame on me..... <---that last little phrase was the rule long before I ever got my ears wet flying online well over 10 years ago, and it still applies today......

I found it absurd to see people post  saying they would die 10 times for 1 kill of a vulcher ( no offense meant Schatzi,  and I am no saint, I have done that before myself long ago, seriously ) but from the Instructor's / Trainers view I
have to call it like I see it, and upping from a capped field is truly a bad tactic.... giving up 4/5/6/even 10 kills for 1 kill of a vulcher is in my eyes bad example to lead by..........fun , maybe,  example to lead by not a chance.....

edited: the remark I posted/quoted from one of the thread posters was the reason I even responded to this thread, btw....... "the don't give a ***** atitude" is part of the problem with the ever increasing change we consistantly experience in the MA,  along with what Simiral has eluded to in the post above this one.....

not wanting to stir the pot, or argue with anyone,

 Mars

( btw I am not getting in a P'ing match with any of you, ya'll can go at each other all you want,  but try to do it in another forum please )

[zelo13]

Maybe we should all just fly in totally "realistic" ways....like diving our Ki-84s into ships? Or ramming our I-16s into He 111s?  Or flying our B-25s off of aircraft carriers? And how about if the engine falls out of our F4U because the engine mounts were over-stressed and the bolts failed? The whole "realism" thing seems little absurb given that there are limitations imposed when playing a simulation (hence the name simulation).

Defining the "right way" and the "wrong way" to fly seems a little absurb given that in order to define those things, you would first have to define what the objective is that you are trying to achieve by playing the game. Some people play the game to have "fun" which means something different than those who play to "survive" which in turn is different than those who play to "score." There are as many reasons to play the game as there are players. Human nature is such that you're never going to get total agreement on what's "right" and what's "wrong."

And I don't think someone who is reading these forums is necessarily going to rush out and do whatever they read on here just because they read it on here. What would happen if we told everyone to drive their car with a blindfold on???

Before SA, there is this thing called "common sense." If you don't have that simple life skill then you more than likely have issues that go beyond the scope of improving your performance on aces high.

The game is what it is. It's got its pros and its cons. People play the way they play. And people come and people go. And people argue about inane issues and turn it into an "us" vs. "them" situation. And those are about the only ways that this simulation is truly "realistic."

Personally, I love this game. And when I find those rare moments when everything comes together it's a great experience that is hard to top.

[zelo13]

Just for the record, TC...that was me you blasted in your first response. I never said I didn't care if I died 10 times, I said I didn't care if the field was cap'd. At least in my mind, there's a difference between those two statements.

Obviously there is this thing called common sense. I mentioned it in my last post. I'm not interested in dying 10 times in a row but I am willing to push a 1 vs many situation if there is a reason to.

You might also notice that I didn't advise anyone else to die 10 times either.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by zelo13
Just for the record, TC...that was me you blasted in your first response. I never said I didn't care if I died 10 times, I said I didn't care if the field was cap'd. At least in my mind, there's a difference between those two statements.

Obviously there is this thing called common sense. I mentioned it in my last post. I'm not interested in dying 10 times in a row but I am willing to push a 1 vs many situation if there is a reason to.

You might also notice that I didn't advise anyone else to die 10 times either.

I did not post your name zelo, because I did not want you to think I was "pointing at you" and I never said that you"advised people to die 10 times"

1 more thing, my apologies if you feel like I was BLASTING you, I was responding to the "comment " only, not to you personally

you supposedly have been around flying for the last 12 years ( circa AW 94 you posted ) well, my apologies for not remembering you,  
what people do and fly like is their own thing, I am not telling people how they should play their game, I don't guess I have typed that enough though,

you voiced your opinion, I accepted it, I voiced mine- in which you did not accept it I don't think: I also said it was not a good idea, not to a new player, not for people looking in here for help, to be telling them "well if I get 1 or 2 maybe 4 planes before I eat the farm" or "sometimes 1 kill is worth 10 deaths" that it is ok, yes you got to die to learn sometimes but not at the expense of a dweeb vulching you..........but if people feel the need to do so ( up from a capped field that is ) I posted my thoughts on what  plane I would use......

There are all different types of people who read these boards ( yes including the Help & Training Forum) all I respectfully request is to post and reply with what would be the proper technique/tactic /maneuver/game play would be for the subject in question.  This would help the Gameplay for everyone by leaps and bounds.......

nothing wrong with telling someone how you sometimes like to do things, even if you know yourself it isn't the right or proper thing to do, but  to tell them it doesn't matter, or dieing by being vulched has no effect on game play opens the door to pandora's box and we get what we got.......

Seriously, everyone of us for the most part came from some other flight sim,  The Trainers in each sim had a role they filled, but the Veteran players of those Sims filled an even bigger role,  you get back what you put out, if not enough people put out the right info, then you get nothing back, you get CHANGE......

no disrespect meant to you zelo, or you Schatzi.........( I know you both was not TELLING people it is ok to die to vulching dweebs, my apology )

The Training & Help Forum is for the whole AH community,  but just like any other forum, this one should be moderated as well, personally I think it should be moderated even more so than many of the other forums, for the sole purpose of  making gameplay better for all......and when we are Training/Teaching people in the TA, we send them to this forum more than any other AH forum, to search tips and other things, so in a way, I feel the Trainers have a right to "police" this particular forum to make sure "wrong info or tactics" are not plastered everywhere, and don't everyone be going taking that personally or anything, am just talking/expressing my view here.......

and I am definitely against flamewars in the Training and Help Forum, regardless of who the Flamers are Trainer or not....

for the most part though, this Forum along with the  Aircraft & vehicles and the Hardware/software forums are the 3 best forums on these boards....( <---again my personal opinion )

~S~ all

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by mars01
I can respect what you posted here TC et-al, but the question was dealing with upping from a vulched field.  So with that said, coming in here and condeming doing it doesn't seem to benefit the original poster.

IMO - why should this forum be censored?  Again this mentality that if you are not an AH trainer then your opinions are not relevant seems to be the biggest negative injection into this thread.

This forum is not some holy ground for trainers only and I think you guys are out of line trying to make it that.

Actually you are merely trying to incite what you couldn't on the general discussion boards from me. Nor will I engage in it here as this is the Help and Training Forum.
 
WTF are you talking about.  The lack of AtoA combat and timid flyers is what is killing the old gaurd.  They are not going to IL2 for the "Win The WAR".  I think your soap boxing and blaming this and that ON  them and those is more of a problem.  

The reason XBullX is leaving is not due to a lack of AtoA nor timid flyers. If you need to know his reasons then ask him. Again your last sentence in an attempt to flames no bearing on the subject. But thanks for the try!

Just because you don't agree with the way some like to play Ren doesn't mean it should be discounted and isn't valid.  If anything as trainers you guys should be able to show all sides of this game without prejudice.

It is not a matter of agree'n or disagree'n with how people play. We teach them how to get up and fight. What they do when they leave us is their own business. Hopefully, we instill some form of gamesmenship in them while they are with us. If we are asked, which is what the Help and Training Forum is for, then we respond with the correct way. If you noticed my response without your personal bias you would see that was a correct response.

So what are we supposed to give ideas of how the game should be played someone elses way?  As I said above the forums topic is Help and Training but it is still open to the community to discuss and talk about all the different ways to play this game.  If you do not agree, it is not a less valid way of playing the game IMO.

First of all, don't come in here with your high and mighty garbage that anyones teaching noobs how to play. Of course we teach them our way. What part of "WE TEACH THEM HOW THE GAME SHOULD BE PLAYED" are you missing? That's a fact of life.  Some come into the Training Arena with a mouse and can barely takeoff. They cannot use a radio. Some have never flown a plane (virtual or otherwise). They come to us and we teach them. We also teach them arena etiquette. So, YES! We absolutely teach them our way so they can get up and enjoy themselves. As they fly more and more in the arena they begin to establish they're own style of flying. They are easily influenced by the 100 or so squads and usually move from one to another until they find their niche. Once there they learn to fly the way that particular squad likes them to and they usually turn out positive additions to the game. As a final statement on it...YES, WE DO TEACH THEM OUR WAY. Until someone from above tells us to teach them differently that's what the trainers are gonna do.

You have a right to your opinion. Give it freely to whomever will listen to it. Just don't expect some trainer to jump up and say  "hey, yer doing a fine job telling them how to die lousy!" It ain't gonna happen.

I respect the trainers for taking their own time to teach the noobs, but that doesn't make you guys the judge and jury of what should be said and talked about.

Your only respect is to try and keep peace while you blazenly make personal attacks. LOL.
Actually when people come to us for training thats exactly what we do. We evaluate someones flying skills, then suggest ways to fix misconceptions and work with them so they can achieve thier own personal goals.

If you want to tell someone to go auger egg some hanger to take a field what have you taught them? If you tell them to take off from a capped field to die what have you taught them? How to die? They have already learned to do that.

So far you've attempted to flame me 2x on the Help and Training Forum. Ask any trainer and you will get
"please keep your discussion to Help and Training".

Hope this helps!!
 

[mars01]

TC I understand, I read your second post, I understood why and what you said and I was ready to accept that as good enough for me and leave it at that.  

It was Ren's backhanded BS, qouted directly below, that I felt needed a response and ignited this retarded off shoot.  If he wants to take pot shots he should expect to get a retourt.  Him acting like he didn't expect it is even more rentarded.

At some point the trolls and everyone's ideas about how the game should be played "thier" way will push more of the old guard from the game. And these are the bread and butter folks who've always paid their bills on time. I'm not so sure youngin's are in for the long haul.

While the trainers sure do appreciate the help of the community, and I mean that sincerely, it's one thing to help us bring new folks up to speed but something entirely different to come into the training forums an spout out their personal way of doing something. They have lotsa opportunity to take someone aside and tell them how "they do it". The trainers must deal with getting the new folks up to speed quickly by teaching the correct procedures for the game. As they learn, you like all the vets flying, they will learn their own style and way of doing things. We just want to get them up flying and fighting sucessfully so they can have fun like the rest of us do.

Ren even when your told you are projecting you can't stop.  My second post to you included a to you.  It was meant to allay your normal incorrect and abrasive reaction of uncontrollable stoopidity, unfortunately it didn't make it past your thick skull.  Getting into it with you is a complete waste of time and I did not want to go there inciting all your blabering and crying.

Your crying about me comming after you is just bunk.

Actually you are merely trying to incite what you couldn't on the general discussion boards from me. Nor will I engage in it here as this is the Help and Training Forum.

But you are engaging and it is you inciting it.  LOL but way not to hahaha.
Do you really think I give a crap about you?  Boy you need the attention huh.

First of all, don't come in here with your high and mighty garbage that anyones teaching noobs how to play.

"Nor will I engage in it here"  I thought you weren't engaging lolh.
High and mighty, get a grip.  Please show me where I was acting high and mighty?

Your only respect is to try and keep peace while you blazenly make personal attacks. LOL.

Where's the personal attack?  Was it this that got your panties all bunched?

Originally Posted By: mars01
Don't listen to all these wussies saying not to up from a vulched field. IL2 is great, hurr IIc, Spit 16 - LA7 if you can get it up to speed.

Thicken that skin up a little will ya sheesh.  What was incorrect about what I typed.  In context to this thread - "What works best for instant action?" - your answer to not do it does not help or even answer his question.  Yeah your listening to your student well LOLH.

[Simaril]

Ren and TC:

Picking apart other people's answers, and vigorously defending yours, does not belong here. This thread's degeneration shows why.

I'm embarrassed to see this as a representation of HTC to newer guys.

Might I suggest that in the future it might be better to take a different course? When a H&T thread starts to go bad, you can change things with a simple response like "I disagree, but arguing doesnt belong here. This forum isnt about us, so lets drop it or take it elsewhere."

Trainers should have the professionalism (and probably the kindness) we see in Schatzi.


On the other hand, frankly, I'm not sure the maturity levels shown here should be empowered with moderator privileges.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
The Training & Help Forum is for the whole AH community,  but just like any other forum, this one should be moderated as well, personally I think it should be moderated even more so than many of the other forums, for the sole purpose of  making gameplay better for all......and when we are Training/Teaching people in the TA, we send them to this forum more than any other AH forum, to search tips and other things, so in a way, I feel the Trainers have a right to "police" this particular forum to make sure "wrong info or tactics" are not plastered everywhere, and don't everyone be going taking that personally or anything, am just talking/expressing my view here.......

Apparently your view is shared by Ren, and perhaps by the other trainers.  If this is supposed to be an adjunct forum to the TA, then fine, the rest of us can stay out.

- oldman

[Vudak]

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THAT GROUP HUG!?!?



<--------------- scrambles!







Edit - um...  guys...? Not to anyone in particular and not excluding anyone in particular, but I think we're all scaring the children, if ya know what I mean.

[Schatzi]

"Buh!!!"                @Vudak


I agree though. Maybe this thread  (at least after post no 20 or so) belongs into General Discussion?