Oil Change Instructions for Women and Men

[mora]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
mora, I am trying to find something comparable to how you present your emission samples.  The EPA states it all in grams/mile, and not percentages.  

Those are the values of an emission test cycle. The percentages are measured in the SMOG test, as an emission test cycle costs thousands. The emission test cycle limits between Europe and USA are usually comparable from eraly 90's forward. On older vehicles the US standards are way more strict. When the limits are tightened it usually happens in CA first, followed by the EU and the rest of the US. Diesel emission standards are AFAIK more strict in Europe and we have emission tests for them too.

[mora]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
EDIT:  Mora, dynometer testing is currently only required in California for emissions testing.  It is optional for all other states, but expected to be required within the next two years for all states.

I don't expect it to happen in Europe for at least in 10 years. That would be a huge investment and would likely double the yearly inspection cost. More likely the future OBD systems will eliminate the need for a physical emission testing.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Yea, they used to need a break in period.....and still do. If it`s an engine...it needs a break in period. Refer back to common sense once again. If you choose not to....hey.....you certainly wouldn`t be the first not to know to.

 I never said that modern cars didn't need a break-in period, but I said it was not as stringent as in decades gone by.

And Beet, I could care less what some magazine has to say about a car. I am more thanqualified to write and article about a car, and I could say your Audi is junk in it for various reasons, if I wanted to. - skuzzy

Oooooooer!! Lighten up! I only posted that link because I thought you'd find it interesting, and for no other reason. I only read the Service section, and scanned the rest. By the way you reacted, I'm guessing it wasn't a flattering write-up. I'll have another read of it. I wasn't trolling you.

just talked to an engine builder buddy and guy I use for machine work and he said that motors with short oil change intervals look a lot better when torn down than those that he considers neglected... - lazs

Lazs, I don't disagree with you or jackal that those old legacy engines that you guys have in your cars benefit from a short interval between oil changes. The point is that the modern engines benefit from all the things Mora has already pointed out: Cleaner running because of more efficient computerised engine management and fuel injection, "lean burn" engines, improved engineering which allows engines to be built to finer tolerances, improved oil technology and modern synthetic oils. For these reasons, the service interval is much longer these days. Do those old V8 klunkers enjoy any of these benefits?

While I'm STILL waiting to hear from Jackall as to why new car warranties have become longer, not shorter, with the advent of long service intervals and no need for a "break-in" oil, I did some research on Hyundai, the Korean car maker. Hyundai models have a service interval of 10,000 miles, and there is NO "break in" oil needed and NO initial oil change at ~1000 miles. Despite this, Hyundai models in the UK are sold with a 5 year unlimited mileage warranty. That is to say that if I drove 20,000 miles a year, after 4½ years the car would still be under warranty at 90,000 miles, despite never having used a "break-in" oil. Hyundai warranty link: http://www.hyundai.co.uk/fiveYearWarranty/intro/

"Break-in"  oil - LOL - that really is a thing of the past!

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by mora
What do you guys actually mean with "break in oil"? If you mean the first oil change after 1000km or so, then it's something that a few manufacturers still recommend.

The oil in the new engines after factory is NOT "break in oil" but the same stuff that the manufacturers are recommending you to use. They used to have special "break in oil" decades ago, and you HAD to change it soon or the engine would be ruined.

Just read break in oil as the oil you use during break in period. Evey engine has a break in period....no matter what it is.
I , personaly, never used same viscosity for break in period than permanent.
Owners manuals or sort of like Windows For Dummies, only for cars. If you trust a dealer even to know about his product, mechanicaly, in most cases, you are barking up an empty tree. Most are assuredly experts on taking your money for payment, but few actualy know anything about their own product. Dealers are salesman. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
I never said that modern cars didn't need a break-in period, but I said it was not as stringent as in decades gone by.  

Classic.

While I'm STILL waiting to hear from Jackall as to why new car warranties have become longer, not shorter, with the advent of long service intervals and no need for a "break-in" oil

They still do have a need for break in oil. A big need, so you won`t be hearing that from me.
As far the longer warranties.... I don`t think you are that dense and I know I`m not so just call the game due to rain of the brain.

I did some research on Hyundai

Translation: "Google just had another brownout and I found some more generalized canned info that I take to be the gospel."

Hyundai for God`s sake. Sheeeesh.

[beet1e]

In Europe, it's not the "dealership" that publishes the vehicle handbook, it's the manufacturer. Thus there's just the one version that is provided in all cars, regardless of which "dealership" sold the car. Yes, I'm sure the manufacturer knows more about the cars he makes than some guy rocking back and forth on his stoop, 5000 miles away across the pond.

[Jackal1]

The manufaturer gives the benefit of a doubt that the buyer has at least a glimmer of common sense. ..........................Pro bably a mistake.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Translation: "Google just had another brownout and I found some more generalized canned info that I take to be the gospel."

Straight from the Hyundai website, Jackall. I repeat, Hyundai in the UK offers a five year, unlimited mileage warranty on their new cars, which DO NOT use a "break in" oil and which DO NOT require an initial oil change at ~1000 miles. Are you saying that this information is false? I know you never follow the links, for two reasons:

• your dial-up doesn't have the bandwidth
• you're not interested in the FACTS.

For those who ARE interested in the facts, the Hyundai warranty says this:

Hyundai's cars are covered by a five year, unlimited mileage warranty* protecting you in the unlikely event of problems arising from defective materials or manufacturing defect. This is in addition to your statutory rights as a consumer and forms an integral part of the car purchase.

[mora]

I think it's pretty pointless to argue this issue. Both sides are not going to change their position on this one.

Not once have I heard from any credible person or literature that our oil change intervals are too long, or that there is any reasonable benefit from changing your oil at 3k or so miles(if proper oil is used). Infact the teacher of a lubrication technology course(D.Sc from VTT) confirmed this when we asked him(I actually believed otherwise back then). A "technicians" testimony will not change my view on this.

Conserning "break in". A properly done break in(like the racing engine builders do) is a complex procedure, and it's something the average car owner can not do(And the manufacturers have kept this in mind during the engine design). I suggest on taking it easy for the first 1000 miles, there's really nothing else you can do. Many manufacturers don't have any recommendations conserning break in at all.

[beet1e]

See Rule #4

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
Straight from the Hyundai website, Jackall. I repeat, Hyundai in the UK offers a five year, unlimited mileage warranty on their new cars, which DO NOT use a "break in" oil and which DO NOT require an initial oil change at ~1000 miles. Are you saying that this information is false? I know you never follow the links, for two reasons:

• your dial-up doesn't have the bandwidth
• you're not interested in the FACTS.

For those who ARE interested in the facts, the Hyundai warranty says this: [/B]

And Google just browned out again.
Beetle I don`t need bandwidth to ignore Hyundai. It`s also pretty easy to ignore the tin cans in the trash.

Just a word about "owner manuals". Contrary to what seems to be beleived here, the manual didn`t come from some superior being seated on a a throne of golden Engineness. It is a compiled list of merely bits and pieces produced by many people that haven`t got a friggin clue. It is meant as a very, very minimum piece of info for those with very, very little savvy.
I`d be willing to bet that not one of these folks could actualy build an engine, have built one or would even have the faintest clue where to start. It is bits and peices, gleaned from larger sources, by many, who know nothing more than how to produce a booklet.

[Skuzzy]

I have not argued whether oil changes are too long, or too short.  I was really curious about why the same make of car would have two different recommendations about oil change.

I think I have that one figured out and it was a rather fascinating learning process.

Mora, my vehicle test report for my old Infiniti shows ppm/litre for HC and NOx, and a percentage/litre for CO.  CO and CO2 are combined in the CO reading.  I assume the same is true for your tests as well.

I am still trying to find some technical papers which gives details as to why more frequent oil changes would help keep the emissions of a vehicle reduced.  The studies are done, but finding stuff like this is like pulling teeth.

[beet1e]

See Rule #4

[Jackal1]

See Rule #5

[Skuzzy]

Ok, this one is done.  This is the second time I have had to close a thread or do heavy editing because of you two.  Either ignore each other or stop responding to each other.  I will not tolerate another one of these exchanges.