Author Topic: Staga et al  (Read 1681 times)

Offline -lynx-

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« on: May 11, 2001, 10:51:00 AM »
 
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Of course you did know Stalin already tryed to do that didn't you?
Sorry but it seems like your knowledge about history has some holes in it.
Well I guess you didn't know Stalin didn't - the war in Europe was imminent, there was a need to provide a buffer zone. Soviet Army went in and provided the required buffer. End of story. Yes, they underestimated the Finnish resistance, yes they got their nose bleeding but the buffer was provided regardless and that's where they'd stopped. It does look like national pride clouds your outlook on what had actually happened.
 
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26.11.1939 15:00 village of Mainila in Russia was shelled by few artillery granades and grenade launchers. That gave Russia a reason to attack to Finland 30.11.1939. So it took four days from Red Army to attack agains us.
Funniest thing was that nearest Finnish artilleries were 50km from border.
I wonder what kind of cannons those were with 50km trajectory?
(I don't know who shelled the village) But using simple common sense - why wait 4 days? Had they shelled the village themselves surely anyone in his right mind would just attack? Why give 4 days to prepare defenses? I guess Finnish historians have answer to that too...

 
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Please share your secret knowledge of the chances. Finland remained, Poland was occupied.
you're quoting out of context blau - I said had they wanted to occupy Finland, they would. Hitler's intention was to occupy Poland. Stalin's - to create a wider Soviet controlled territory between the border and Leningrad which he did.

 
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Russia was first country who recognized Finland as a free country 4.1.1918 (by Lenin) and at same days countries like France (Didn't wait what Lenin decide) and Sweden (Did wait what was Lenin's opinion). GB and USA wanted to see what happens in Russia before they recognized Finland as a free country.
So Lenin was a guy who gaved us our freedom thought in those times he did have his hands full of work already. Guess he was happy when he get rid of us
Blimey - you were not an "occupied country" I'm afraid... It may tickle whatever feelings it tickles but both Poland and Finland were mere provinces in the Russian Empire conquered lond time ago and absorbed under the Russian Crown. Helsinki was a base for Russian Baltic Fleet fer chrissakes! Bolsheviks set a base in Finland and used it as a hideout before the Revolution - I suspect some kind of deal might have been struck in exchange for "help" from the Finnish side. But hey - we'll never know...

AG Sachsenberg

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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2001, 11:33:00 AM »
OK this is one thread that needs to have died out awhile ago.  

Offline Staga

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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2001, 03:02:00 PM »
Lynx I see you've already readed Russian version of History.
Maybe you should buy some book from western writers, They might be closer the thruth.

Did you look that map where was marked those battles where 44. and 163.Division fought and died?

Was it somewhere near Leningrad?
Look out those links I posted in other thread; Check them out, read maps etc and I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions.
If your opinion is they are BS thats fine but if your conclusion is they are more accurate than what you did learn in school then we can continue this.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2001, 05:35:00 PM »
Posted by -Lynx-
 
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Had Stalin wanted Finland back under the Soviet rule - they would have marched all the way to Swedish border.

Ookay, Here we go  

Arctic Storm:
The Battle of Suomussalmi: December, 1941

By
David James Ritchie

A key element in the Soviet plan for the conquest of Finland was a rapid drive to the Gulf of Bothnia at Kemi and Oulu, slicing that small nation in half at its narrow waist and cutting overland communications with pro-Finnish Sweden.
Vasili Chuikov's 9th Army was to accomplish this task by means of two independent thrusts. While one rifle corps marched toward Kemi through Salla and Rovaniemi  in the north, Chuikov's main force would mount a multi-column advance from the Juntusranta-Raate area and from Repola that would roll through the Finnish towns of Suomussalmi and Kuhmo, respectively, before converging on Oulu. In the event, the subsidiary Salla operation and the flanking drive from Repola got nowhere, and both sides' attention soon focused on the main
thrust through Suomussalmi.

Occupying the shortest axis of advance toward Oulu, Suomussalmi had most of
Chuikov's attention from day one. It also got his best unit, the powerful 45th Rifle Corps, with 48,000 men, 335 guns and 150 tanks and armored cars in two divisions: Divcom Zelentsov's 16 3rd Rifle Division and Divcom Vinogradov's 44th Motorized Rifle Division. On 30 November 1939, the Mongolians of 163rd Rifle Division advanced on Suomussalmi in two columns. The northern column (81st and 662nd Rifle Regiments, with supporting tanks and cavalry) moved on the town from Juntusranta, while the southern column, consisting of 759th Rifle Regiment and the division's recon battalion, marched up the road from Raate.
Strung out on the road east of Raate, the Ukrainian 44th Motorized Rifle Division awaited word to advance in support of the thrust toward Suomussalmi.

Chuikov caught the Finns napping. Since they never expected anyone to attack through the almost trackless wilderness of central Finland in winter, only two battalions of covering troops were deployed to defend a 650-kilometer stretch of frontier. In the Suomussalmi area, two platoons of regulars and the reservists of 15th Independent Infantry Battalion were all the Finns had in the way of two reinforced enemy divisions.
Hindered as much by the terrain as by the enemy, Chuikov's methodical advance
proceeded more or less to plan during the first week.

Then, on 6 December, 662nd Rifle Regiment, which had turned north at Polovaara to develop a flanking movement, found its line of advance blocked at the Piispajarvi Straits south of Peranka by the Finnish 16th Independent Infantry Battalion. While the regiment spent two days assaulting the Finnish blocking position, 81st Rifle Regiment kept moving south toward Suomussalmi, where it linked up with 759th Rifle Regiment on the7th.
By that time, the retreating Finnish Civic Guard had already evacuated the town,
leaving behind only smoking ashes. On 8 December, 16th Independent Infantry Battalion, supported by a gaggle of small units, counterattacked 662nd Rifle Regiment and began driving it back toward Haapavaara.

On 7 December, as 45th Rifle Corps was taking over the embers of Suomussalmi, Finnish CIC Marshal Mannerheim ordered Lieutenant Colonel Johan Makiniemi's 27th Infantry Regiment to deploy to the area, where it was to form the core of a new independent brigade under the command of Colonel Hjalmar Siilasvuo.
Most of Makiniemi's men were lumberjacks, perfectly at home in the deep forest, especially now that there was half a meter of snow on the battlefield. Their experience in the snow-clad woods was an important element in what followed.

Makiniemi's men started arriving on the 9th and immediately engaged Zelentsov's
forward elements. The rest of Siilasvuo's new brigade reached the battlefield on the 10th, giving the Finnish commander 4,700 men with which to oppose 16,000 Soviet troops in the area. Outnumbered by almost four to one and with the enemy threatening to capture the Haukipera Ferry and encircle his fledgling brigade, Siilasvuo naturally planned a counterattack for the 11th.

On that date, the Finns cut the vital Raate road behind the main body of 163rd Rifle Division and brought the Zelentsov's only other supply route, the road from Juntusranta, under harassing fire. On the 13th, Siilasvuo attacked Suomussalmi itself, initiating a bitter five-day struggle for the ruined town. Here the freezing Soviets (still in their summer uniforms) had hastily dug themselves into the blackened cellars of burnt-out buildings
to escape temperatures that were plunging to -40 Fahrenheit. Despite their weakened condition, once out from under the forest canopy where their tanks could support them and they c ould use their superior firepower, Zelentsov's shivering Mongolians proved hardy fighters. Siilasvuo had to halt the attack due to extreme casualties. He tried again on the 20th, but that attack too failed in the face of stubborn resistance. Meanwhile, 40kilometers to the north, ski troops of 16th Independent Infantry Battalion (shortly joined by 6th Bicycle Battalion and Lieutenant Colonel Karl Mandelin's newly formed 65th
Infantry Regiment) cut off and pinned down 662nd Rifle Regiment near Haapavaara.

By this time, it was finally dawning on Chuikov that Zelentsov was in need of rescue. On 23 December, Divcom Vinogradov's 44th Motor ized Rifle Division finally pushed up the Raate road to within seven kilometers of the 163rd's positions at Suomussalmi. In the isthmus between Kuomasjarvi and Kuivasjarvi, its lead 25th Rifle Regiment was halted short of a linkup by elements of
Makiniemi's regiment and some local Civic Guardsmen, holding a tenuous blocking position.
As the road-bound 44th's attack ground to a stop, Finnish ski troops closed in behind it and cut off its retreat too!

The next day (Christmas Eve), Soviet bombers and fighters raked Finnish positions, while the ground forces mounted an all-out genera l attack on Siilasvuo's forces. For two days, furious fighting raged throughout the area as Vinogradov assailed the Finnish blocking position at Kuomasjarvi and Zelentsov tried to break out of Suomussalmi and link up with his would-be rescuer. The Soviet attacks f inally spent themselves late in the afternoon on the 25th, and Zelentsov's demoralized troops settled down in their freezing
holes to await events.

They were not long in coming. Even as the Soviet attacks were petering out, Siilasvuo's command (renamed 9th Division on 22 December ) was reinforced by Lieutenant Colonel Frans studmuffinernas's 64th Infantry Regiment, a light battalion and 1st Sissi Battalion. These additions, together with the arrival of two artillery b atteries and a battery of two AT-guns earlier in the month, gave the 9th a total of 11,500 men and made it strong enough for Siilasvuo to prepare an assault that would destroy the two divisions caught in his
trap at Suomussalmi.

At 0730 on the 27th, the Finns counterattacked the 163rd, initiating a savage two-day battle in and around Suomussalmi. On the 28th, they breached the southern perimeter at Hulkonniemi, causing the Soviet troops west of Kiantajarvi to panic and flee across the ice . By 1900, the panic had become general, and two-thirds of Zelentsov's division was in flight, shepherded northward by a few remaining friendly tanks vainly trying to keep the pursuing Finns from turning the rout into a massacre. The Finns, though, were mercilessly efficient, and those who weren't cut down by suomi-toting ski troops were bombed or strafed by Finnish planes. Few made it back across the frontier. By 1200 on the 30th, the mopping-up was over. The last frantic Soviet breakout attempts had been
contained, and t he 163rd Rifle Division no longer existed.

The Finns counted over 5,000 unburied Soviet corpses on the Suomussalmi battlefield. Thousands more lay hidden under the snow, and nobody knows how many troops perished on the ice of Kiantajarvi or in the forest northeast of Suomussalmi. Only 800 surrendered. From Soviet positions, the Finns scavenged 200 trucks, 11 tanks, 68 guns (including about 30 AT guns) and thousands small arms, plus many more thousands of badly needed AP rounds. In honor of his victory, Siilasvuo was awarded his country's Freedom Cross.

On the 28th, while Siilasvuo was still preoccupied with 163rd Rifle Division, Vinogradov had rejected his officers' suggestions that he retreat and had ordered his division to dig in and prepare to defend itself in a series of hedgehogs strung out for 25 kilometers along the Raate road all the way back to the frontier. With an energy born of desperation, the Ukrainians felled innumerable trees to clear fields of fire and hacked shelters out of the frozen earth. As the Ukrainians dug, hundreds of ski troops, lurking under the
branches of the fir trees on either side of the exposed motorized column stepped up their harassment. Soon communications between major hedgehogs were only possible using tanks.

On New Year's Eve, just three days after shattering the 163rd at Suomussalmi, Siilasvuo's troops opened a new operation to cut up and destroy 44th Motorized Rifle Division. After several days of intricate maneuvering that included the construction of Winter roads hidden under the dense forest canopy, the Finns launched their main assault at 0600 on 5 January. Their aim was to chop up Vinogradov's division so that it could be destroyed in detail. Enemy resistance was unexpectedly fierce, perhaps in part due to the presence of a new formation, the fresh 3rd NKVD Regiment, which was just arriving to assist the 44th.
But at 2200 studmuffinernes's engineers destroyed the Purasjoki Bridge, blocking
wheeled traffic east of Likoharju, and the morning of the 6th found Finnish troops holding strong blocking positions behind mines and abatis at several points in the midst of the Soviet column.

On the 6th, there was heavy fighting all along the Raate road as the Finns continued to break up the 44th into bite-sized pieces. The Soviets tried to overrun Finnish roadblocks with armor, but the tanks couldn't maneuver in the forest and were reduced to making suicidal frontal assaults. Throughout the day, as brewed-up tanks piled up in front of Finnish positions and as crews bailed out of vehicles stuck in deep snow, the wreckage only made it more difficult for the Soviets to move at all. Finally, at 2130, Vinogradov be latedly ordered his division to retreat back into Russia. But the 44th was now far too chopped up to respond to orders. Like a dying snake, it continued to thrash about underfoot, but all purpose was gone.

During the long night, as final destruction loomed, individual soldiers and small units, many of which had been without food for five days, shed their equipment and took to their heels. Seeing the enemy dissolving before their eyes, the Finns lost no time in infiltrating the perimeters of the Soviet hedgehogs, and wild firefights lit the night along the Raate road. By morning, every large motti was in Finnish hands. A few small units made ferocious breakout attempts early in the day, but the battle was effectively over wit h the rising of the sun. Mopping-up went on for two days, during which the Finns rounded up hundreds of starving, frozen Ukrainians, many of whom were found sitting quietly in their dugouts awaiting death; their commissars had told them that the Finns didn't take prisoners.

On 9 January, the Finns closed the books on the battle for the Raate road. Like the 163rd,the 44th had been gobbled up. In the process, it had given over to the enemy a grand total of 1,300 prisoners, 1,170 horses, 43 tanks, 46 guns, 29 AT guns, 278 trucks 100 machineguns, 190 automatic weapons, and 6,000 rifles.


The combined battles of Suomussalmi and the Raate road destroyed the Soviet 45th Rifle Corps as a fighting force and cost the Soviets an estimated 22,500 men. The Finns lost 900 killed and 1770 wounded. It was the greatest victory of the Winter War and the one that captured the imagination of the world. Most important, it ended the Soviet threat in central Finland and forced the Kremlin to reassess its war aims.



Offline Wmaker

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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2001, 11:35:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Finnish teacher didn't dig deep into atrocities committed by Finnish troops against Russian civilians, did he?

As it was said in the original thread: Winter war was fought mostly on Finnish soil. What you said here is complete roadkill and I take it as A SERIOUS INSULT. And I'm not gonna even start about what
russians did to finnish civilians...You are lying here big time and if you have any decency (which I seriously doubt) you take this back immediately. Currently you are just a liar with insulting as a purpose to me.

   
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
It may hurt your national pride and everything but you stood no better chance to fight off that offensive than Poland vs German army - in fact Polish odds were better.

Read up before you speak up. In 1939 Germany and Russia had two completely different doctrines their armies used. Germany had fast mechanized units which were well suited for Blitzkrieg style of warfare. Russia on the other hand had a doctrine of old fashioned infantry "mass-attack" tactics. This was mostly because Stalin had executed most of the high-ranking officers in thirties. Extreme cold 1939-1940 winter (-40- -50 degrees Celcius) also favored finns. Many russian infantry men came from Southern Russia (ie. Ukraine region). They didn't know how to ski and weren't used to the extreme conditions of finnish winter. Finns knew the terrain, had higher moral, better tactics and the biggest advantage of all: WILL TO DEFEND THEIR OWN COUNTRY. After Winter War history has repeated itself: ie. Vietnam and Afganistan.

   
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Had Stalin wanted Finland back under the Soviet rule - they would have marched all the way to Swedish border.

roadkill, see above.

   
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
I'm very much interested in finding out more about Winter War but can we discuss it in the OT?

Here you admit you don't know that much about Winter War. It's better to shut up than speak up if you don't know sh*t what you are talking about.

disgusted,

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"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."

J. Stalin 1948

[This message has been edited by Wmaker (edited 05-12-2001).]
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Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline ispar

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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2001, 04:01:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by AG Sachsenberg:
OK this is one thread that needs to have died out awhile ago.  

Pot, this is kettle... do you you copy, pot?

go 'way.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2001, 04:56:00 AM »
Wmaker, unfortunately Lynx is right. In March, 1940, Mannerheim line was penetrated and Soviet tanks already were behind it, coming through the ice of the Finnish Gulf. They were maybe 2 days from Helsinki and there was nothing to stop them. Finnish parliament was wise enough to agree to Stalin's "proposals"...

That conflict was probably the hardest local war for the Soviet army. My Father lived in Rostov on Don that time. He said that all the hospitals even that far to the South were full of wounded and frozen soldiers, and in winter, 1940, he had a long break in their studies, because his school became a temporary hospital...

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Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2001, 08:46:00 AM »
 
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Here you admit you don't know that much about Winter War. It's better to shut up than speak up if you don't know sh*t what you are talking about.

And how, my obviously so f*****g learnt friend, one is supposed to acquire knowledge if not by raising questions? Unless you don't actually want to know cuz you are so flipping comfortable with your version of history?

I know enough to say the Finnish troops were hated more than Germans about their conduct on occupied territory. Leningrad blockade, remember how your oh so darn glorious and chivalrous troops side by side with their German masters tried to starve 1,000,000 people into submission? Or didn't they teach that "version" of history in your school?

Someone asked for proof of Finnish army atrocities on Russian territory needing documented photo evidence cuz blimey - surely we never did anything "untoward".

Hmmm let's see: "Excuse me Herr Officer, do you mind if I take pictures of those hanged/shot/cut to pieces corpses of innocent civilians so that we can all look at it later? Do you mind signing and dating this as well? Very kind of you - thank you very much..." <sarcasm mode off>

1. Finns slaughtered thousands of Soviet troops with their bare hands - yet peace negotiations were started by the Finnish government - discuss.

2. Finns slaughtered thousands of Soviet troops with their bare hands - yet the Soviet troops somehow retained occupied territory and the buffer zone around Leningrad was created - discuss.

3....

I really want to know how come Finland got away with what you got away with cuz sure as hell it makes no sense to me or anyone who would care to get off his anticommunist horse and start thinking.

Finland was allied with Hitler - there's no way around it. Then you "saw the errors of your way" and this somehow provided freedom from occupation/reparations etc. (Why didn't, say, Hungary or Romania just said - "Oops..." Oh wait - they did but for them it somehow didn't matter, they were overrun and a puppet governments were set upon them.) What you "Western" historians say about that? Or doesn't it (again I might add) fit into the accepted "Bad Ruskies no matter what" cliche?

 
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Read up before you speak up. In 1939 Germany and Russia had two completely different doctrines their armies used...
...and that relates to Finland's chances to withstand an all out attack of "old fashioned" but many times outnumbering and much better armed army exactly how? The valiance and skill of individual Finnish soldier/pilot made a noticeable dent but wouldn't matter in the end. In the war of attrition you simply stood no chance however brave defense was put up. For chrissakes, Russia withstood Hitler's army onslaught! Or didn't you know that? Think before you speak up?

 
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OK this is one thread that needs to have died out awhile ago.
AG - you're so right, it should have - I apologise profusely for bringing up a topic of some godforsaken conflict with no American involvement whatsoever. Oh wait, you did take part in it - that's where Finns' love for Brewster came from - their pilots did so well in it  


[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 05-14-2001).]

Offline Staga

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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2001, 09:16:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by -lynx-:

I know enough to say the Finnish troops were hated more than Germans about their conduct on occupied territory. Leningrad blockade, remember how your oh so darn glorious and chivalrous troops side by side with their German masters tried to starve 1,000,000 people into submission? Or didn't they teach that "version" of history in your school?


LOL Once again your knowledge about history shows some funny holes in it...
A.Hitler asked/demanded that Finnish forces would join to the Leningrad blockade but Mannerheim didn't want to send troops there because his opinion was that Finland should only cover its own borders and if I remember correct he was already then worried what would happen later if Germany would lost the war. As you can see he was very bright leader.

Here's a link you should read too and please check out facts before you continue to send these stupid replies. http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9764/warfin1.html  

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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2001, 09:19:00 AM »
Once again Stage <S> that is very good reading.  I always enjoy reading about the successes of the Finns.  They have a special place in my heart.  The underdog taking it to the big bully persay.  War is hell toejam happens.  <S>    

Offline Staga

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2001, 09:23:00 AM »
 
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On 22nd June 1941, Germany launched its massive attack against the Soviet Union. Finland joined the war on 25th June. This time the Finnish army was much better prepared and equipped. The army consisted of almost half a million men which was more than the Soviet army had on the Finnish front. With its determination and brute force the Finnish army quickly reached its old border line and continued the offensive deep into Russian territory. On December 1941, the Finnish army stopped its advance although Hitler insisted that Finland should attack against Leningrad with the Germans.

The war had become stabilized, and a part of the Finnish army was demobilized. Men were waiting in their bunkers just doing some daily routines. Everything changed after the German defeat in Stalingrad. The total German victory did not seem anymore reasonable and Finland started to find a way out of the war but it turned out to be impossible in that situation because of the German pressure.

http://www.ruthvilmi.net/hut/Project/Culture/History/wars.html

[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-14-2001).]

Offline Staga

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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2001, 09:43:00 AM »

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2001, 11:51:00 AM »
Staga, AFAIR in December, 1941, Leningrad was already encircled and the Siege began... I think that Mannerheim, a former Russian general of Engineering corps, with his Russian General Staff Academy education, was wise enough not to throw his soldiers into the blood bath at Pulkovo and around Leningrad...

I see that you didn't provide any counter-arguments to Lynx's statement: if only Stalin wanted it - he could easily make Finland the 16th Soviet republic. Oh, sorry, the part of the 16th republic. Karelia had souverign status in USSR that time.

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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2001, 12:02:00 PM »
Minus the personal shots, very interesting reading.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2001, 01:13:00 PM »
Rip, it's a sad discussion... I still wonder why Stalin decided not to occupy Finland. I am happy that he didn't. Being born in Leningrad I have spent summers in late-70s on Karelian istmuth, where my Father's military engineering college had "summer quarters". It's a beautiful place, and I still miss it... But now Finland is a great example of what could Russian Empire become now if bolsheviks didn't take power in 1917... I beg my pardon to our Finnish friends, but before the Revolution Finland was the backward and undeveloped part of the Empire... History is a very sad thing...

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With respect,
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