Author Topic: global warning update.  (Read 6879 times)

Offline Jackal1

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global warning update.
« Reply #240 on: June 14, 2006, 10:04:36 AM »
Pretty interesting read from Hot Talk/Cold Science

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OAKLAND, California--In recent weeks, as delegations from 150 countries prepared to discuss stringent and mandatory measures to combat global warming at a December meeting of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change in Kyoto, environmental activists and their bureaucratic allies have tried to stifle public debate by claiming that the evidence was "compelling" and the science "settled." But according to physicist S. Fred Singer, former director of the U.S. Weather Satellite Program and chairman of the U.S. investigation into climate effects of the supersonic transport (SST), the science on global warming is neither settled, nor compelling, nor even convincing.

In Hot Talk, Cold Science: Global Warming's Unfinished Debate (Oakland, California: Independent Institute 1997), Singer presents a comprehensive assessment of scientific controversies on the climate change issue. Most disturbing, he says, is that the proposals being put forth at Kyoto are based on forecasts from flawed computer models of the Earth's climate, and not on actual observations. Although the models are improving over time (and their warming forecasts growing smaller), they still cannot simulate clouds, predict the occurrence of El Ninos nor adequately account for the climate effects of volcanic eruptions. In effect, he says, modelers are holding up a black box and saying: "Trust us. It's in there." Many atmospheric scientists are not so sure.

While global average temperatures have increased about 1 degree F in the last century, almost all of this occurred before 1940 and is considered by most atmospheric scientists--including respected Swedish meteorologist Bert Bolin, former chairman of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change--to be a natural recovery from the "Little Ice Age," a period of much colder temperatures between the years 1450 and 1850. In the last 50 years the temperature increase has been negligible; in the last 20 years, according to global satellite data, temperatures have actually fallen slightly.

Singer points out that the Earth's history, both recent and geologic, shows evidence of many natural and unexplained temperature fluctuations. Even over the last 3,000 years of recorded history, some of these changes were larger and more rapid than those forecast by the models. What is more, there is no evidence that recent droughts, floods, snowstorms or other severe weather-related phenomena are at all related to global temperature. Since 1950, the severity and frequency of hurricanes has actually been decreasing.

Recent research has raised important questions about the causes of natural climate change, and pointed to more cost-effective remediation for the build-up of CO2, should that be needed. Scientists have now uncovered potentially new climate mechanisms, most intriguing being the effect of variations over the course of the 11-year solar cycle. There are indications that contrails from commercial airline traffic--increasing at 5 percent per year--could be producing a slight regional warming over Europe and North America. Preliminary studies of ice cores and ocean sediment cores indicate that assumptions about warmer temperatures producing a rise in sea level could be false. Finally, successful experiments with ocean fertilization hold the promise of drawing down CO2 and using it to increase fish stocks.

The three reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change--each of them dense reading of 300 plus pages--have been good compilations of global warming science up to the point of publication. But few people read the IPCC reports, says Singer. Instead, they read the politically approved Policymakers Summaries, which have become notorious for consistently overstating the problem.

The reality is that the more scientists study climate, the more aware they are of its incredible complexity. "Theoretically, increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide should be enhancing the greenhouse effect, says Singer, but that doesn't appear to be happening. We need to know why. Until we do, governments should not rush forward with ill-defined schemes that have no scientific foundation, will not reduce atmospheric CO2, and--as we have seen with the Montreal Protocol banning chlorofluocarbons--are globally unenforceable."
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Jackal1

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global warning update.
« Reply #241 on: June 14, 2006, 10:06:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
LOL Lazs - I didn't know David Attenborough was a religious fanatic!
 


Sir David is a fame/fortune profiteer. Maybe we should ask Mel Gibson what his ideas are. :)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 10:31:32 AM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline lukster

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global warning update.
« Reply #242 on: June 14, 2006, 10:28:34 AM »
Interesting read Jackal. Suspect it will be denounced as heresy by the warming alarmists.

Offline lukster

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global warning update.
« Reply #243 on: June 14, 2006, 10:52:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Antarctica is breaking of very big chunks now, - bigger than known before.
What their effect will be is hard to say, - depends where they go.
Big chunks stay very long, - and smaller, but somewhat proper chunks like the one who got hit by the Titanic can take centuries to melt. (It is claimed that one has been identified)
But the thinner ice on the arctic melts faster, breaks faster etc. That one, already being in the water does NOT raise the ocean level.
Personally, I am not worrying so much about the ice melting. It will take a long time to raise the SL properly. It's the TUNDRA melting that gives me the jitters. Ask me why ....


According to this guy from Weaselsan's Al Bore thread the breaking off of ice from the Antarctica's glaciers is a naturally occuring event. As the glaciers grow and extend beyond land over sea they break off, something to do with gravity I think. If anything, an increase in this breaking off implies that the glacier is producing more ice, not less.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/harris061206.htm

Offline Angus

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global warning update.
« Reply #244 on: June 14, 2006, 11:09:16 AM »
Jackal:
"Machinery takes iron/metal to make and produce. Iron ore has to be mined/refined. ( More C02 output) This is not even considering the machinery used and C02 output produced in the exploration end of it.(Machinery) Factories have to be built and in production. (More machinery, more C02 output) Once built, the machinery has to be shipped. Whether by land or sea, it equals more machinery , more C02 output.
Your theory would pan out if the machinery magical appeared on location.......possibly.  Don`t work like that."

Give me a number in the creation of machinery to play with. For I have a lot of space for it.
You can also use animal husbandry output to the calculus. That will still yeald a plus. So I guess the machinery is less beneficial?
How much energy to create a tractor that lasts 10.000 hrs compared to the oil it will burn in 10.000 hrs. MORE? naaaa.

And this:
"Your theory and figures are also based upon perfect scenarios just like the sceanarios used by global warming theorists."

I picked Danish figures I have ib ny head, and Denmark is FAR from being the perfect scenario. Want something proper? Go to the field production of the Mid West for instance.
I can also pick out Icelandic numbers. Less effective than the Danish ones...but yet on the right side.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Mini D

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global warning update.
« Reply #245 on: June 14, 2006, 12:09:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Depends. Glaciers like those sitting on Greenland are not floating on water but rather sitting on land. Any melting there would add to the volume of the sea. However, there are a lot of unknowns, not the least of which is how much water will be absorbed by the warmer air. I've read that none of the ice in Antartica will melt due to the current warming trends but rather it will likely grow due to the increased snow fall resulting from the warmer air holding more moisture.
It does not "depend". You are assuming temperatures are only increasing over the surface of greenland? That gets an even bigger "LOL!".

This is the problem right now. People come up with completely assenine theories and then create "scenarios" where it "could" happen. These scenarios exclude considering things like science and history. What is it, exactly, that differentiates it from the common definition of "religion" again?

Offline lukster

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global warning update.
« Reply #246 on: June 14, 2006, 12:27:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
It does not "depend". You are assuming temperatures are only increasing over the surface of greenland? That gets an even bigger "LOL!".

This is the problem right now. People come up with completely assenine theories and then create "scenarios" where it "could" happen. These scenarios exclude considering things like science and history. What is it, exactly, that differentiates it from the common definition of "religion" again?


Huh? You said that melting glaciers would reduce sea level. If all of the world's ice were converted to water sea levels would go up assuming the air didn't absorb it. You are the one applying a "scenario" here. I was simply trying to point out to you that most of the world's ice is on land, not water.

Offline beet1e

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Greenland, 2001
« Reply #247 on: June 14, 2006, 01:13:56 PM »
I might have posted this pic before. This was Greenland in 2001. I don't know what it looks like now.


Offline lukster

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Re: Greenland, 2001
« Reply #248 on: June 14, 2006, 01:45:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
I might have posted this pic before. This was Greenland in 2001. I don't know what it looks like now.


Can only improve, unless yer a Penguin.

Offline Skuzzy

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global warning update.
« Reply #249 on: June 14, 2006, 01:54:07 PM »
250 posts and let's see.

Yep, it seems if you have an opinion about it, you can find backing of said opinion on the Internet.  Well, at least one thing has been settled.

Oh yes, to be sure, opinions are going to change the way we live forever.  hehe, ya just have to giggle a bit.  By the way, I hear too much oxygen can cause cancer.  I know I read it on the Internet somewhere.
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Offline SirLoin

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global warning update.
« Reply #250 on: June 14, 2006, 01:56:25 PM »
Yeah.. Meanwhile polar bears are turning into canibals due to global warming.
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Offline Angus

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global warning update.
« Reply #251 on: June 14, 2006, 02:28:16 PM »
They are turning on each other true indeed, and it may have to do with their habitad becoming smaller. (Surface of driftice gives better access to fish and ... seals).
So, it may have a link to the shrinking of ice which some here seem to belive possible without global warming.
Greenland should look roughly the same from a viewpoint as the one in the picture. You have to go to the roots to see how the glaciers are slowly giving in.
Am I the only one to have been there?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lukster

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global warning update.
« Reply #252 on: June 14, 2006, 02:43:38 PM »
Never had much use for polar bears myself. Guess that in the overall scheme of things they are important to keep the seal population under control?

Hmmmm, fewer polar bears, more seals? More seals fewer fish? Fewer fish more plankton? More plankton less co2? Less co2 more ice? More ice more polar bears? Guess it all balances out. ;)

Offline SirLoin

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global warning update.
« Reply #253 on: June 14, 2006, 02:50:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Never had much use for polar bears myself. Guess that in the overall scheme of things they are important to keep the seal population under control?

Hmmmm, fewer polar bears, more seals? More seals fewer fish? Fewer fish more plankton? More plankton less co2? Less co2 more ice? More ice more polar bears? Guess it all balances out. ;)



man u stoned..:rofl :aok
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Offline Angus

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global warning update.
« Reply #254 on: June 14, 2006, 03:33:04 PM »
Yep, he stoned.
Polar bears = Grizzly aggressive and very strong animals, and although white and fluffy the only nice thing about them is the fur.
Them disappearing is no grief to many, but it bears witness to ice melting, leaving new open spaces of ocean.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)