Our kids killed by their Iraq 'Partners'.

[Nash]

What a Herculean effort there, Rip, to.... what? Continue to try and say that the insurgents are "NOT Iraqi forces?"

And how do you go about that? By saying that the "established Iraqi Army or police" are not fighting the US.... as if they are going to turn around and fire on their trainers. Jeeze...

So in effect, this:

"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently INSURGENTS that are killing our boys, NOT Iraqi forces, can you?"

Actually means:

"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently an armed Iraqi uprising that are killing our boys, NOT the army and police we are trying to train."

Good one.

If, however, what you were really trying to say that that it's predominantly foreign terorists and NOT the Iraqi insurgents that the US is fighting over there, then you'd still be wrong. That number is more like one in ten.

[WMLute]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Wow, over 2000 soldiers have died correct?

That really is a low number.

Around half a million died during the American Civial War.

I think Millions died during World War II.

How many people died in the first 3 hours of D-Day?

2,000 people compared to recent wars is a very small number.  I think we have done a great job of reducing fatalities in war.  But no matter how hard we try, I believe there will always be death in war.

(It just really sucks to be one of those 2k men that died)

I am glad Saddam is no longer in power.  He is a very bad man and should be punished for the horrible things he had done to his own people.

Total KIA's
Civil War:  562130
WW2:  408306
WW1:  58354
Vietnam:  58219
Korean War: 54246
Revolutionary War:  25324
Mexican War:  13283
Iraq War: (it's just over 2500 now ish right?)

Something else to take into account when comparing casualty figures for American Wars--the relative size of the US polulation.

For example, there were a little over 2 million Americans in 1776--3,929,214 on the 1790 census. Our population is 100xs as much as it was during the Revolutionary War. In the War of 1812, the population was just over 7 million (7,239,881 on the 1812 census). For the Civil War, our population was right at 30 million--on tenth what it is now. We were at half of our current population during the second World War, and at 183,285,009 on the 1960 census at the eve of Vietnam.

In other words, while every American life is precious, if you what to know the true imact of war casualties as percentage of population--you need to do the following:

If Iraq 2500 (ish)
Then,
Vietnam=98,9723
WWII=816,712
Civil War=5,6300,000
Revolutionary War=2,532,400


During World War II, more American soldiers died in two weeks on average than in all of the months of operations in Iraq. Despite the tragically higher fatalities rate of World War II, the media of its day kept a respectful distance, and allowed the families of the dead to grieve privately in dignity. There was no complaint that American soldiers were dying "needlessly in a war of aggression" against a Nazi Germany that did not bomb Pearl Harbor.

Using Pentagon statistics cross-checked with independent research,  an annualized Iraqi civilian death rate would be  27.51 per 100,000.

While that number sounds high, it's significantly lower than a number of major American cities, including the nation's capital.

It's 45 violent deaths per 100,000 in Washington, D.C

Other American cities with higher violent civilian death rates than Iraq include:
Detroit - 41.8 per 100,000
Baltimore - 37.7 per 100,000
(I'll add that my hometown of St. Louis also is higher)

At what point did so many Americans become such whiney babies?  Where did our resolve go?  It's SAFER to live in Iraq as a civilian than in the U.S for cripes sake!!!  

Threads like this just make me shake my head in disgust at what huge wussies many Americans have become.  If soooo many people on this BBS are sooooo concerned w/ the loss of human life, maybe they need to focus on things like the 30,000 people that will commit suicide this year.  Or the 100,000 that will die in an accident.  (TWICE as many people will die in a work related accident this year than have died in Iraq)  Y'all need to step back and get some perspective.  We need MORE resolve in Iraq.  We need to be MORE aggressive.  Not less.  This is WAR!  Don't care if you are for it or against it, we are IN it.  Lets try to not not go down in history as the generation of the biggest bunch of wimps produced by this great country of ours to date.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Nash
What a Herculean effort there, Rip, to.... what? Continue to try and say that the insurgents are "NOT Iraqi forces?"

And how do you go about that? By saying that the "established Iraqi Army or police" are not fighting the US.... as if they are going to turn around and fire on their trainers. Jeeze...

So in effect, this:

"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently INSURGENTS that are killing our boys, NOT Iraqi forces, can you?"

Actually means:

"You just can't face facts that its predomeniently an armed Iraqi uprising that are killing our boys, NOT the army and police we are trying to train."

Good one.

If, however, what you were really trying to say that that it's predominantly foreign terorists and NOT the Iraqi insurgents that the US is fighting over there, then you'd still be wrong. That number is more like one in ten.

I can't help those with sand in their ears, Nash. Regarding the last sentence in your drivel, got a source?

[Nash]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
I can't help those with sand in their ears, Nash. Regarding the last sentence in your drivel, got a source?

Sure! There are tons out there.
Here's one.

"The US and the Iraqi government have overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, "feeding the myth" that they are the backbone of the insurgency, an American thinktank says in a new report.
Foreign militants - mainly from Algeria, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia - account for less than 10% of the estimated 30,000 insurgents, according to the Washington-based Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS)."

Note the distinction between "foreign fighters" and "insurgency," genius.

[lazs2]

It is safer to be a soldier in iraq than it is to be a civilian in several of nash's darling blue cities like washington dc or detroit.

lazs

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Nash
Sure! There are tons out there.
Here's one.

"The US and the Iraqi government have overstated the number of foreign fighters in Iraq, "feeding the myth" that they are the backbone of the insurgency, an American thinktank says in a new report.
Foreign militants - mainly from Algeria, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia - account for less than 10% of the estimated 30,000 insurgents, according to the Washington-based Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS)."

Note the distinction between "foreign fighters" and "insurgency," genius.

Ah. I see. They stood by the border and counted them I suppose...

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Nash


Note the distinction between "foreign fighters" and "insurgency," genius.

Yes, I noticed Nash. Your point?

The report says the presence of foreign fighters is cause for alarm "particularly because they play so large a role in the most violent bombings and in the efforts to provoke a major and intense civil war". The CSIS disputes reports that Saudis account for most of the foreign insurgents

This might be news to you Nash, but insurgency does not me "freedom fighter" nor does it mean that resistence is strictly from the civilian population.

[Nash]

Ask CSIS.

Nevertheless, asked and answered.

Now run along and continue to pretend that as long as the US trained Iraqi police force isn't turning around and shooting their trainers in the face, then there wouldn't be any insurgency.

[Eagler]

with our overwhelming hardware, training, skills and ppl, I find it strange that we would lose any battle against these sand savages ... and no one should be able to kidnap any US soldier at anytime. The forces should never be placed in a position where that possibility is even possible ..

have the Israelis ever have a soldier kidnapped in the west bank? Think we should folow their lead as they have much more experience in dealing with these animals..

[Dos Equis]

[
Threads like this just make me shake my head in disgust at what huge wussies many Americans have become.  If soooo many people on this BBS are sooooo concerned w/ the loss of human life, maybe they need to focus on things like the 30,000 people that will commit suicide this year.  Or the 100,000 that will die in an accident.  (TWICE as many people will die in a work related accident this year than have died in Iraq)  Y'all need to step back and get some perspective.  We need MORE resolve in Iraq.  We need to be MORE aggressive.  Not less.  This is WAR!  Don't care if you are for it or against it, we are IN it.  Lets try to not not go down in history as the generation of the biggest bunch of wimps produced by this great country of ours to date. [/B]

So, we know what you are against. What are you for? Continued troops on the ground? You can say only 2,500 were killed - but over 15,000 soldiers have been wounded. That plus the massive logistics around places like Camp Bremer make the amount of money that the US government spends in Iraq. We're looking at $6 billion a day (source: http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/cost_of_war_in_iraq.pdf)

This is going to be a trillion dollar war. And nothing is changing.

British Brig. Gen. James Everard, who is in Basra - perhaps 101ABN knows of him - has said - when he took the action of holding British troops back from a firefight in a Basra suburb:

"I look at them and say, `Shall I go and clean it up?' And I think I'm just going to piss them off and drive them away from democracy.  Will I have done good for the people of al Majar? Probably not. I will have just radicalized them."

The path the interim government is on looks to be a pro al-queda, pro-Iran regime. The biggest winner in the whole affair is now Iran. They can sabre rattle and make waves about nuclear weapons. British Lt. Col. David Labouchere stated that the Iranians are setting up training camps across the border for Iraqi Shi'ites to learn guerrilla warfare.  An Iraqi aide also said to one of Lasseter's comrades that "we are a branch of Iran".

So - when does this end? How do we measure the fight? To the point that "everyone we fight there is one we don't fight here" - even if that weren't ridiculous on its face - it ignores the effect of radicalizing the middle east and creating generations of new fighters who only harbor hatred for the US.

I'm sure everytime the Israelis use a helocopter and a TOW against a car carrying a palestinian leader, they say "well, that's one less we have to fight". And hope for a temporary restructuring of power - but it happens quickly and the mortor attacks start up quickly again.

Hangtime happens to be right, either shore up the troops with a massive influx of men - to the tune of half a million new troops on the ground - or leave and let the Sunnis and ****es rip each other apart. In fact, foster it. Sponsor assassinations. Get them at each others throats, what we need is to cull the population of fighting age men in Iraq.

If a pro al-queda regime sprouts up - bomb it and overthrow it again. And make all the regimes that have benefited from the USA saving them with decades of economic aid start shouldering the burden. This week the Japanese troops, about 400 of them pulled out. Who said they could leave? get the heck back in there. And the Germans, and the Poles. We need a massive group of troops from all over the world. Get the Russians in there. Putin needs US economic aid badly still, and so he should pony up some of those special forces troops hardened against fighting the Chechnians.

If you are going to win against Muslim radicalism, I agree we need to play to win. What is going on now is stupid. The guys who just got beheaded were seperated when their three-Humvee unit was ambushed. What the hell are we doing with a three Humvee convoy anyway? Keeping the peace? Screw that. Tanks, and lots of them. Rolling in groups. All US troops get immunity against civillian casualties, this court martial that is going on is stupid aginst those guys that pulled people out of their homes and shot them. Those women are running messages and using cellphones, and those kids are carrying grenades. If you have to pull a woman or two out into the town square and put her on her knees to tell you where the IED is buried; then do it. THe Sovets had no trouble with this in Afghanistan in the 1980s. But better yet, don't even go there. Simply evacuate the people of Basra, and secure the pipelines leading up from there and start taking the oil. Forget Baghdad, there's nothing of use there. Anyone who digs in at Basra gets a one time chemical bath. Send in bulldozers to pile them up, make Basra and the oil ports into one giant Camp Bremer.

Spend what it takes once to get it done. Now, were just wasting money and going nowhere.

[Thud]

Originally posted by Dos Equis
Keeping the peace? Screw that. Tanks, and lots of them. Rolling in groups. All US troops get immunity against civillian casualties, this court martial that is going on is stupid aginst those guys that pulled people out of their homes and shot them. Those women are running messages and using cellphones, and those kids are carrying grenades. If you have to pull a woman or two out into the town square and put her on her knees to tell you where the IED is buried; then do it.

You've just mentioned all the things that American and other free world forces have been fighting against the past century.

Not only will you lose any war and especially this one and bankrupt the US both economically and morally if you adopt the tactics above but you will dishonor the legacy of all who fought and died to keep such excesses out of our world.

You are a complete Rule #4!

[Dos Equis]

Originally posted by Thud
You've just mentioned all the things that American and other free world forces have been fighting against the past century.

Not only will you lose any war and especially this one and bankrupt the US both economically and morally if you adopt the tactics above but you will dishonor the legacy of all who fought and died to keep such excesses out of our world.

You are a complete Rule #4!

We're bankrupting the US now. We should at least get cheap oil from the region to fill our cars up with for a few more generations.

Let Sean Penn go make an Oliver Stone film about war atrocities. I don't want to do the above, just until we clear the population out of the areas of economic interest. Then put fences and checkpoints in. This urban combat in the capital of Iraq is BS. Gains the US nothing. These idiots cant even write a consititution correctly.

Move out to the eastern oil fields, which are mostly in open areas that are easier to secure. Approach an oil field in a car bomb, and a sniper will put a .50 cal round through the windshield before the car even gets close.

All the rest is BS. Let the ****es and Sunnis have at it.

[Yeager]

Im starting to think Dos might actually be on to something here.....

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by 101ABN
bottom line, the bad guys are sneaking into the ranks of the new iraqi army.. how else would you learn good tactics.. there are american gangs who groom members to join the military so when they get out they can share the good warfighting knowledge with their counterparts.  its old news.  i trained Iraqis in Mosul back in 03-04.. there is a good screening process in place trying to weed out the suspected types before they ever leave the VEO (iraqi recruiting station).  keep in mind that the average yearly income for a worker in Mosul before the war made on average 300 dollars.. if you made that much and some terd came up to you and asked you to plant a bomb for 500 dollars would you?  how about taking a pot shot at a soldier for 500 dollars.. yep, you would... that is the common tactic they are using to get people to help.. their army doesnt pay all that much.. my basic private was making 100 dollars a month.. officers at the rank of captain was making 300 dollars a month.. imagine a quick 500 dollars to release a patrol route, convoy route and times..... as for the 2 soldiers that were snatched from the checkpoint.. they were not hit by Iraqis that they were with.. these soldiers were in my brigade.. pray for their families.

Good old Capitalism at work...i wonder what the screenning process is at this point. Are the insurgents more saavy ad avoiding the screening tactics, or are there lesser, or no, screening tactics whatsoever?

[Neubob]

Originally posted by Dos Equis
We're bankrupting the US now. We should at least get cheap oil from the region to fill our cars up with for a few more generations.

Let Sean Penn go make an Oliver Stone film about war atrocities. I don't want to do the above, just until we clear the population out of the areas of economic interest. Then put fences and checkpoints in. This urban combat in the capital of Iraq is BS. Gains the US nothing. These idiots cant even write a consititution correctly.

Move out to the eastern oil fields, which are mostly in open areas that are easier to secure. Approach an oil field in a car bomb, and a sniper will put a .50 cal round through the windshield before the car even gets close.

All the rest is BS. Let the ****es and Sunnis have at it.

You know, I've been mulling the above statement over for the last couple minutes, and I have only one response...

Dos Equis in '08!!