Author Topic: Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil  (Read 11222 times)

Offline Bruno

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #165 on: July 26, 2006, 10:29:16 PM »
An F4F-3/4 can easily hold its own against an A6M2. Real life isn't like AH where by ever fight is to the death while pulling the stick to your belly. A well trained, well disciplined pilot is not going to play to the strengths on his enemy.  The F4Fs could easily out maneuver the zekes at higher speeds. They could escape and evade an attacking zero by diving and rolling away. Add that to better unit training and tactics and that's exactly what happened in real life. Ami pilots were better trained to fight as a unit compared to the Japanese.

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twin 20mm's always make a bit....


They are 2cm Type 99 Mk 1 they are just barely above an HMG in terms of lethality. However, it's low muzzle velocity made landing snapshots difficult. If the Amis keep the fight fast, even if they didn't have a significant advantage in top speed, their F4Fs would be able to out maneuver the A6M2 as such making gunnery more difficult. The fast the fight the less maneuverable was the A6M2. The A6M2 only carried 60rpg. In fact if you have read anything about Japanese fighter pilots, like Sabaru Sakai for one, you will see that they had little love for those early cannon.

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BTW, the early engagements were against other and older Japanese fighters than the Zeke. Slow speed, no radio, twin mg's, fixed undercarriage etc. (some or all). Even a HurryI is faster than those.


No shyte that's why I wrote:

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IJA fighters were slow, had even worse armament then the A6M2 and were just as fragile. Japanese pilot combat tactics were as out dated as their infantry tactics even before the war started. They may have had good technical fliers but their leadership and tactics were crap and were so through out the war.

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #166 on: July 26, 2006, 11:22:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
The F4Fs could easily out maneuver the zekes at higher speeds. They could escape and evade an attacking zero by diving and rolling away. Add that to better unit training and tactics and that's exactly what happened in real life.  

Heh.

I don't think that the relative losses in the Pacific up through the end of 1942 bear this out, Bruno.  Might work in AH.  Might even have worked in real life, had the pilots been privy to your learning.  But it didn't work out that way historically.

- oldman

Offline Angus

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« Reply #167 on: July 27, 2006, 03:53:56 AM »
How the heck did Sakai and Iwamote get their kills....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline TimRas

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« Reply #168 on: July 27, 2006, 05:00:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
How the heck did Sakai and Iwamote get their kills....

How did Foss, Smith, Carl, Swett and Galer got theirs ?
F4F claimed a kill ratio of 6.9 to 1 , 178 lost, for 905 'confirmed' kills.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #169 on: July 27, 2006, 06:35:48 AM »
USN's F4F and USAAF P40's success against Zeke's:
1 and 2, Tactics and Teamwork.
But to the P38, - that's where you have something MORE, like a bigger performance difference, which always comes in handy.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #170 on: July 27, 2006, 11:02:08 AM »
Interesting story of a P-38 pilot over Europe.

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With two relatively easy kills under his belt, Robin Olds became cocky and overconfident. Two weeks later, On 25 August 1944, this attitude nearly killed him. On this day Olds, now a flight leader, was leading a four-plane formation in a sweep to Berlin. Zemke's plan called for Olds and the other 64 pilots of the 479th to fly ahead of an American bombing force in an attempt to flush out fighter opposition. The flight would then escort the bombers through the most heavily defended areas near Berlin and then "beat the hell out of anything that flew, rolled, floated, or crawled in Germany." The plan worked.
 
Several miles south of Muritzgee, Olds' flight ran straight into a huge swarm of 55 Messerschmitt 109s. The ME-109, Germany's most famous fighter of the war, had a maximum speed of 386 mph [sic] and carried a 20-mm cannon and two 13-mm machine guns. Olds' twin-engine P-38, by comparison, could reach a top speed of 414 mph and carried one 20-mm cannon and four .50-caliber machine guns, but it was less maneuverable than the agile 109. As Olds remembered it, the hair on his neck began to stand up, so he edged his flight way out to the left of the group. Finally, he spotted his prey.
 
Frightened, the pilots in his number three and four planes bugged out, leaving Olds and his wingman alone against this massive armada of Nazi fighter power. The ME-109s were in perfect position to wipe out the attacking Allied bomber force. "I remember vividly the exhilaration, the cotton-mouthed excitement," recalled Olds. "I knew all the others had fallen behind, so far behind they didn't have me in sight. I also knew the two of us were about to attack fifty-five enemy aircraft alone."
 
As his first target grew larger and larger in his sights, Olds placed his finger on the trigger of his four .50-caliber machine guns, ready to squirt a stream of lead into the cockpit of the 109. Suddenly, his engines sputtered and quit. In all the excitement, he had forgotten to switch fuel tanks and his engines had run dry. Without taking his eyes off the target, he switched tanks. The engines erupted and came back to life, and Olds took his shot. "I don't know if anyone ever shot down an enemy aircraft while on a glide slope, but I did. I fired and he sparkled with hits, smoked, dove off on his right wing and promptly bailed out." Olds then continued toward another bogey. He downed this second Messerschmitt with a lucky deflection shot, earning him his second kill for the day and fourth in the war.
 
Olds then pulled out of his dive at 15,000 feet with both his Allison engines at full boost. The force of this pullout sucked the canopy right off his aircraft. He was now 500 miles from home in enemy territory, low on gas, so cold he was teetering on the edge of hypothermia, and with limited maneuverability due to his open cockpit. If that weren't enough, an ME-109 pulled into Olds' rear quadrant and started to pepper him with its 20-and 13-millimeter gunfire. "I tried to break left and pulled desperately at the yoke. The old P-38 wouldn't turn worth two cents with that canopy gone, and the bullets continued to come home."
 
He continued to try to jink his aircraft to frustrate the ME-109's gunfire — but then the tables suddenly and miraculously turned. The ME-109 overestimated Olds' speed and overshot him. "Now I wasn't the crippled prey, I was the hawk. I rolled wings level, sighted, fired a long burst, and caught him square." The ME-109 yawed up and then nosed down into a field, bursting into a ball of fire in sight of the Baltic Sea. He knew then he would survive "for it was a different day; a different day for the rest of my life." Robin Olds was now an ace!
 
Before the war ended, Olds would get another seven kills in the air and destroy 11.5 enemy aircraft on the ground. He would also leave Europe a squadron commander and a major at the tender age of twenty-two.


Thought you P-38 drivers (like me) would like to know that even pilots in R/L forgot to switch tanks. LOL.

Best Regards

Cement

Offline AquaShrimp

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« Reply #171 on: July 27, 2006, 07:06:27 PM »
The P-38 did so poorly in the ETO due to poor pilots.

I've seen some equations that talk about pilots and planes.  Pilot quality is only disregarded if the plane is so obsolete that it isnt a threat.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #172 on: July 27, 2006, 11:44:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
The P-38 did so poorly in the ETO due to poor pilots.

I've seen some equations that talk about pilots and planes.  Pilot quality is only disregarded if the plane is so obsolete that it isnt a threat.


You need better bait... But, if that's genuine sentiment, you need an edu-ma-cation...  

Read this for starters.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #173 on: July 28, 2006, 02:01:18 AM »
Must have been something in the water tonite Widewing :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline AquaShrimp

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« Reply #174 on: July 28, 2006, 03:53:10 AM »
I'll put some more detail into my statement.

P-38 pilots in the ETO were inexperienced and thusly poor pilots.  A specific example was fuel management.  There were cases where P-38 pilots had to leave other P-38s in dogfights because they were using too much fuel.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #175 on: July 28, 2006, 05:32:34 AM »
Ah, training, well, it was an issue in the MTO, at least in the beginning.
From Anthony Barley's book, Smoke trails in the sky:
(Sqn Leader 111 sqn RAF, Spitfire Mk Vb trop)
Nov 30th 1942. Location probably close to Souk-El-Arba.
In the afternoon we shared our patrol line with a squadron of USAAF Lightnings. They were flying Hendon air display formation, and had obviously never seen an enemy in their lives. If I'd had their wavelength, I would have told them to go home before someone spotted them as sitting ducks.
Suddenly I saw two 109's circle them like vultures, selecting their prey, taking their time. They were thinking just as I was, I reckoned, and forgot about anything else. As they started their attack on their unsuspecting enemy, I started ours and the 109's never looked behind, into the sun, until it was too late. As we turned for home base, running out of fuel, we saw the Lightnings sail on in close formation completely unaware of what had been going on around them. I made a note to get in touch with their Group Commander as soon as I'd landed, and tell him the facts of life, or death, but it was comforting to see some American support at last.

(Bartley does not claim an enemy that day).
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #176 on: July 28, 2006, 06:43:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I'll put some more detail into my statement.

P-38 pilots in the ETO were inexperienced and thusly poor pilots.  A specific example was fuel management.  There were cases where P-38 pilots had to leave other P-38s in dogfights because they were using too much fuel.


Inexperienced pilots, flying any type of fighter, in any theater, would have been at a disadvantage.

P-38s in the ETO were assigned missions that would take them to the limits of their endurance (range), thus every mission was governed by fuel state. Fuel management was determined by circumstances usually beyond the control of individual pilots.

You also need to understand that P-38s were operating in every theater of the war at the same time. All pilots were trained in the same system back in the US. There was no statistical difference in pilot quality between theaters. Initially, P-38 pilots in the ETO had a great deal of flight time in their Lightnings, to the extent that one could state that they were likely over-trained. Replacement pilots were an issue as most had never flown the P-38 prior to being assigned from the pilot pool in Britain. Thus, they received the minimal amount of training before being thrown into combat. That doesn't mean they were poor pilots, they were unfamiliar with the aircraft and literally had to learn on the job. As the P-38 was considerably more complicated to operate than single-engine fighters, this invariably resulted in higher casualties during their first 20 to 30 hours of combat. However, once they had a few missions under their belts, these pilots were no less able than their counterparts flying Mustangs and Thunderbolts.

Remember, the single greatest attribute was combat experience. Green units had to get their experience without the benefit of having a core of combat veterans to teach and guide them. This basic fact applied to all air forces of all nations.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 07:08:21 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #177 on: July 28, 2006, 08:39:30 AM »
One aspect of the P-38 seldom discussed was the fact that Lockheed did not design in much "stretch".

By "stretch", I refer to the ability of the airframe to be upgraded and improved to remain competitive as the general level of performance increased during the course of the war. I suppose that the best examples of "stretch" are the F4U, P-51s, Spitfires and 190 series. Adding to this was Lockheed's prolonged development of the Lightning. It took four years to get the P-38 into combat. It took almost 6 years to get to the ultimate version. Some of this can be laid at the feet of the USAAF, some to the WPB, but the majority of the blame belongs squarely at the feet of Lockheed. By late 1943, Lockheed had done about all it was willing to do with the P-38. They had already moved on to the XP-80 and saw the Shooting Star as their future, which it was.

Documentation certainly indicates that the USAAF was unhappy with the speed with which upgrades were made, as well as the relatively slow delivery rate. Indeed, Lockheed failed to make its contracted monthly delivery quotas 7 times between July of 1942 and January of 1944. Usually the margin was less than 40 aircraft, but the USAAF was not pleased and the War Production Board sent an audit team to Lockheed to discover what was causing the production delays. They found a host of problems, from poor procurement management to unmotivated assembly line personnel. Allison was also found to be deficient in on-time delivery and you can't deliver planes without engines. On several occations, P-38 production was halted due to not receiving engines. Allison blamed the lack of P-38 engine production capacity on the WPB for continuing P-40 production long after the fighter's usefulness was past. Hindsight shows Allison to have been correct. Another issue was unreliable delivery of turbochargers....

Other issues were never fully rectified by Lockheed. Poor to non-existent cockpit heating and a miserable cockpit layout were serious problems that greatly contributed to pilot efficiency and workload. These were fundamental flaws that should have been corrected very early in the program. Field reports flooded back to Lockheed about needed improvements, but they were exceptionally slow in getting needed design improvements into the production line. Not all blame falls on Lockheed as the WPB was often obtuse as well. However, after years of hearing excuses from Lockheed, the WPB was disinclined to authorize production line stoppages for retooling as Lockheed was already behind on deliveries. Major changes, such as those asked for to retool for the P-38K were summarily squashed.

I've had the opportunity to sit in the cockpit of a P-38, a P-51D, a P-47N and an F6F-5. Compared to the Lightning, the others were much better in terms of simplicity and layout, with the F6F being a marvel of ergonomic design in comparison to the Lightning.

We need only look at the Fw 190's engine management system to see how to do it right....

On the other side of the coin was Republic and North American, who delivered on time every month, and both managed to deliver more aircraft than the quota required.

If we examine the Navy's fighter manufacturers, we find that Vought also suffered from a delivery standpoint, as well as a slow and prolonged development. This was greatly mitigated by Goodyear being a second supplier with excellent efficiency. Brewster, on the other hand, was miserable and eventually lost their contract.

Grumman was the Navy's darling. Not only did it get the F6F from prototype to squadrons in 16 months, it exceeded the minimum delivery every month the fighter was produced. Indeed, Grumman's efficiency of manufacture was so great that the work force was reduced by 20% and the manufacturing rate still increased! In March of 1945, Grumman delivered 605 Hellcats from its only factory, a record for monthly production that no other American manufacturer even came close to matching. Grumman completed F6Fs faster than the Navy could accept them.

Lockheed's biggest issue was management... Not until 1945 did Lockheed demonstrate manufacturing efficiency competitive with the other major manufacturers, and that is probably due to the switch-over to the less complicated P-80.

In general, the P-38 was a capable aircraft, a reasonable match for anything it encountered right up until 1945. By then, it's performance was marginal compared to the late-war fighters entering service. Like the F6F, it was being surplanted rapidly by newer types. However, like the F6F, it was the best available when it was most needed, and it certainly acquitted itself very well and was generally loved by those who flew it. Its multi-role ability was never exceeded by any other WWII fighter.

My regards,

Widewing

Edited for typos.....   :)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 08:59:03 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #178 on: July 28, 2006, 08:45:53 AM »
"Its multi-role ability was never exceeded by any other WWII fighter. "

Exactly, IMHO.

But you have some close runner-ups I guess.
Mossie for instance was a whoopingly clever thing.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #179 on: July 28, 2006, 04:19:40 PM »
Pilots of the 1st and 14th FG (prior to re-naming; Pursuit Groups) had some time in their P-38s before arriving in England. They first began receiving their P-38s in mid/late '41 before Pearl Harbor. They had sometime in the US before crossing the Atlantic. 2 P-38 squadrons had a stay over in Iceland and on 14 Aug '42 Lt. Elza D. Shahan from the 27th FS shared a 'kill' of a Fw 200 Condor with Lt. Joseph D. Schafer who was flying a P-40C. The was the first Luftwaffe aircraft claimed in the ETO by USAAF fighters.

These 2 FG flew some 350 sorties or so with little contact with the Luftwaffe before being transferred to the 12th AF. For the 1st FG their first 'combat mission' was flown on 13 Aug '42 when 2 P-38s from the 94th FS scrambled to intercept enemy aircraft over the North Sea. They made no contact. On 1 Sept '42 the 1st flew their first sweep over France. They spotted several Luftwaffe fighters but no combat ensued.

On 2 Oct '42 Lt. William H. Young was flying a Circus (Circus 221) with 35 or so other P-38s of the 1st FG escorting B-17s to Amiens to bomb the Avions Potez factory. These P-38s were engaged by elements of Jagdgeschwader 26 and Young was shot down by  Uffz. Hans-Joachim Stoller (1 confirmed kill) of 2./JG26  (From Tony Wood's casualty and claim list; Calais-Cap Gris Nez: 6.500 m. 16.25 Film C. 2035/II Anerk: Nr.85).

Shortly thereafter both the 1st and 14th (including the 82nd) were transferred to the 12th AF in the Med / NA.

These pilots may not have had significant 'combat training' prior to being dispatch to the ETO but they certainly were familiar with their aircraft and had significant on the job training. By the time they reached NA they had a reasonable number of combat sorties under their belt. This could only contribute to then getting better.

Replacements and expansion are a different story. These pilots didn't have the time to mature into their rides before being pressed into service. This was far more significant in regards to the Luftwaffe and Japanese as the war progressed but all sides had to deal with it.