Author Topic: Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil  (Read 10207 times)

Offline Widewing

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #195 on: July 31, 2006, 07:35:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel

btw, why the multi-role ability was never exceeded by any other WWII fighter??

Didnt the P47´s, the FW190´s and the 110(410)´s did the same and particually more??  

At least the 190 was a incredible workhorse, from fighter, nightfighter,  torpedobomber, divebomber, armned with different rockets, bombs and guns and even with a plane as Bomb below it.

Could the P38 do anything more??


P-38s could, and sometimes did, carry two 2,000 lb bombs. They could alternately haul 310 gallon drop tanks. They were able to haul two 1,000 pound bombs and ten 5" Holy Moses rockets. Later P-47s could haul up to 2,500 lb of bombs, far less than the P-38 could manage (P-38 pylons were rated for 2,300 lb, not to exceed 2.5G positive loading). Which leads to a beef I have with the game... Planes often pull 6G and 1,000 lb/500 kilo bombs are not ripped off of the pylons and racks....

Comparing the Bf 110 or Me 410 comes up short because neither of these stood any chance against single-engine fighters, whereas the P-38 was quite capable.

P-38s were used for photo-recon (F-4 and F-5 series). Droop-snoot P-38s flew as bomber leaders and frequently led large formations of P-38s on level bombing missions. P-38s did yeoman service as long range escorts. Long range interdiction. Close ground support. Triple A suppression. Tactical bombing. Anti-ship missions. Bomber and fighter interception. Radar equipped P-38s were used to guide heavy bombers in the pathfinder role, bombing through overcast on command. Nightfighter (P-38M).

I can think of no other true fighter that was readily adapted successfully to so many different roles.

I agree that the FW190 series was widely adapted to various roles. As marvelous as the 190s were, they couldn't perform in as many roles as the P-38 did.

As I stated, no other WWII fighter exceeded the P-38 in multi-role capability.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #196 on: August 01, 2006, 12:48:36 AM »
apart from the level bombing, i think F4Us did most of whats on that list & it could go from a carier deck, so maybe a tie?
Were there F4U photo planes? I've never heard about them....

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #197 on: August 01, 2006, 11:16:40 AM »
The highest number of Droop-Snoots I have seen sourced state there were only around a max of 90 converted/produced. The first operational sortie was flown in April '44. Most ended up with the 8th AF until just after D-day where they were all transferred out to 9th AF or other commands (10th, 14th, 15th) etc...

They didn't just lead P-38s, the 56th (P-47s) was lead by them on a few sorties as well.

However, I don't think there's anything about the Droop-Snoots that significantly contributed to the P-38s 'multi-role capability'. The P-38 certainly didn't become a worth while level bomber as a result.

The P-38s most significant roles were as fighter, fighter-bomber, and Recce. In those 3 roles it wasn't 'the best' of any other aircraft that flew those same missions. In fact for the cost of 1 P-38 you could get a Typhoon and a P-51.

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #198 on: August 01, 2006, 11:28:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
I have no idea what you are trying to argue; you wanted see comparison on high altitude maneuverability and I posted it (once again). If you look the dive limit chart which Widewing posted above, you can see that left side of the flight enevelope is limited by Clmax (normal stall) and right side is limited by critical mach number (resulting buffeting, tuck under or what ever).

 

Most of late WWII fighters had FTH above or around 20k and most of them had higher limits of the flight envelope above 20k.

gripen


Hi again,

i dont saw a complete comparison of manouverability, only about the CLmax and mach related problems and nothing regarding german planes!
I have no doubt that the heavy wingloaded P38 with its slow initial rollratio got problems with any german fighter in a tight fight, as long as the german planes had power and dont got suprised. Imho only in high alt the P38´s had a real performence advantage, specialy vs the FW190A´s, due to its relative good high alt climb and speed.  In low/med alt the smal bandwith of manouverspeed was wider, but it still had a much bigger liftload than the 109F/G and 190A4/5/6/7 and the german planes had a better relative performence there(not only the P38 got better manouverable down low, the german 1942-43 planes got a even bigger advantage cause their engines was better in low/med alt than above 20000ft).

I dont talk about late war, i already wrote several times that i think mid 1944-45 the P38´s got probelms regarding their performence in europe, i talk about 1942 to early 44.  In this years the P38´s simply could outclimb and outrun most german planes in high alt, not a bad advantage for a fighter and the Vmax of the fighters in general wasnt as high as in 1944/45, so the high alt highspeed probelms wasnt as extreme while normal normal flight´s.



Hi Widewing,

The 110 wasnt a fighter??

The 110 played its role as long range and escort fighter for a pretty long time and they wasnt that bad while this. The 110 could carry as much or more bombs than the P38 and when it started to get obsolete as daylight fighter, it played a very successfull role as fighter bomber and night fighter.
Same like the P38 it got trouble with the single engine fighters in the west, but in the east and MTO it got used successful till mid/late 43. From 1941 onward the 110 mainly got used as fighter bomber and long range fighter, same we can say about the P38 in late 1943, when it started to get obsolete as real fighter it got to be a fighter bomber or long range fighter etc. To say the 110 wasnt a fighter is the same like to say the P38 wasnt a fighter, in 1939-41 the 110 did "outclass" most fighters of the world in a similar way like the P38 did in 1941-43.  

Even if we dont count the 110, i still think the 190´s played as many different roles as the P38, not allways the same the P38 could fulfill, but others the P38 couldnt. The 190 got used as nightfighter(with and without radar), as torpedo bomber, did carry a bomber as bomb(what bombload is this?), could act as real Stuka and fighter bomber(different rockets, guns and bombs), got used as recognize plane, long range fighter bomber, interceptor (many different guns and rockets and special plating) and of course as a real fighter, if we count the Ta152H as FW190 even as high alt fighter and there was some different performence kits to enable more power in different altitudes(MW50, GM1, special C3 injection, higher boost in low level for fighter bombers). The 190 dont had the range, neighter the bomb load, the P38 couldnt divebomb, dont had a torpedo, dont had different gun sets, dont had different plating sets, dont had different wingspans, dont had air to air rockets(afaik).

Only my opinon!

Greetings,

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #199 on: August 01, 2006, 12:41:46 PM »
Forget the 110 for a minute, the Ju-88 flew every thing the P-38 did. It flew as bomber, fighter-bomber, dive bomber, Recce, night fight, heavy fighter etc... It even flew as a pathfinder (lotse). The P-38 may have been a better fighter then the 110 or Ju-88  but it's multi-role capability wasn't any different then any number of other aircraft.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #200 on: August 01, 2006, 02:05:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing


As I stated, no other WWII fighter exceeded the P-38 in multi-role capability.

My regards,

Widewing



You forgot to add its occasional use as an air ambulance and transport plane.



ack-ack
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Offline gripen

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« Reply #201 on: August 01, 2006, 03:07:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel

i dont saw a complete comparison of manouverability, only about the CLmax and mach related problems and nothing regarding german planes!


There is two planes which had NACA 23000 series profiles, there is no reason to believe that the German planes with similar profiles behaved radically different.

Quote
Originally posted by Knegel

Imho only in high alt the P38´s had a real performence advantage, specialy vs the FW190A´s, due to its relative good high alt climb and speed...


The German planes could fight vertical at high altitude and had an option to leave combat at will. The only practical advantage for the P-38 being the climb which according to pilot's stories was often used as defensive maneuver. The speed difference was more or less marginal.

At lower altitudes the P-38 could fight vertical and that is the way the most succesfull P-38 pilots used it.

gripen

Offline 38ruk

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« Reply #202 on: August 01, 2006, 11:09:03 PM »
Quote
The 190 dont had the range, neighter the bomb load, the P38 couldnt divebomb, dont had a torpedo, dont had different gun sets


I have pictures of a P-38-F  dropping an 1,927 dummy torpedo in a 1942 test demonstration, if it would have been needed to drop torps, it could have.

As far as different gun sets go , the 38 could have had multiple gun arrangements if they were requested.  Just a few that i have  read about, and/or seen pictures of are ( 4X.50 with 2X20mm )   (8x.50cal) ( 6X.50cal) .  Ofcourse none of these were put into production ,but  not because the 38 wasnt versatile enought to do it, but because there really wasnt a need for it. Imho the 38 was one of the most adaptable planes of the war .  
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 11:12:33 PM by 38ruk »

Offline Charge

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« Reply #203 on: August 02, 2006, 02:13:08 AM »
"i dont saw a complete comparison of manouverability, only about the CLmax and mach related problems and nothing regarding german planes!"

"There is two planes which had NACA 23000 series profiles, there is no reason to believe that the German planes with similar profiles behaved radically different."

The profile is only a part of the equation and as such cannot be used for comparison of dive performance.  

Lockheed 22 P-38 Lightning  NACA 23016 / NACA 4412
Focke Wulf Fw 190 Wurger    NACA 23015.3 / NACA 23009
Messerschmitt Bf 109G Gustav NACA 2R1 14.2 / NACA 2R1 11.35

The 4412 is probably better in slow speeds but it can create different effects in high speed dives than 23016, although it was mentioned somewhere that NACA windtunnel tests helped to solve some problems in P-38's dive behaviour, but I couldn't find more about this at NACA archives. The Cl vs AoA of 4412 seems to be pretty much the same as with 23016 so it does not create any radical behaviour in stall region as they both seem to peak at 16 deg. Of course the combination of two kinds of profiles makes it more complicated to estimate the combined behaviour.

Interesting pages:

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1937/naca-report-563/index.cgi?page0001.gif

http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1933/naca-report-460/index.cgi?page0001.gif

http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html

-C+
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Offline gripen

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« Reply #204 on: August 02, 2006, 04:27:52 AM »
Hm... The wing without fuselage of the P-38 did fine up to mach 0,74-0,75 at  low Cl (see the link below). But with the standard fuselage the airflow was accelerated between the booms reducing the critical mach number to around mach 0,68. Same way the acceleration of the airflow between the booms reduced the Clmax (basicly local Reynolds number increase). Again the link has been posted here several times.

While the wing profiles of the P-38 were quite old fashioned and thick, these were just partial reasons for the high altitude problems, the main reasons for the low critical mach number and the decrease of the Clmax being the shape of the fuselage and booms. In the case of the single seat German fighters, the profiles were a bit thinner and the wing was mostly in clean airflow.

gripen