Originally posted by gripen
I have no idea what you are trying to argue; you wanted see comparison on high altitude maneuverability and I posted it (once again). If you look the dive limit chart which Widewing posted above, you can see that left side of the flight enevelope is limited by Clmax (normal stall) and right side is limited by critical mach number (resulting buffeting, tuck under or what ever).
Most of late WWII fighters had FTH above or around 20k and most of them had higher limits of the flight envelope above 20k.
gripen
Hi again,
i dont saw a complete comparison of manouverability, only about the CLmax and mach related problems and nothing regarding german planes!
I have no doubt that the heavy wingloaded P38 with its slow initial rollratio got problems with any german fighter in a tight fight, as long as the german planes had power and dont got suprised. Imho only in high alt the P38´s had a real performence advantage, specialy vs the FW190A´s, due to its relative good high alt climb and speed. In low/med alt the smal bandwith of manouverspeed was wider, but it still had a much bigger liftload than the 109F/G and 190A4/5/6/7 and the german planes had a better relative performence there(not only the P38 got better manouverable down low, the german 1942-43 planes got a even bigger advantage cause their engines was better in low/med alt than above 20000ft).
I dont talk about late war, i already wrote several times that i think mid 1944-45 the P38´s got probelms regarding their performence in europe, i talk about 1942 to early 44. In this years the P38´s simply could outclimb and outrun most german planes in high alt, not a bad advantage for a fighter and the Vmax of the fighters in general wasnt as high as in 1944/45, so the high alt highspeed probelms wasnt as extreme while normal normal flight´s.
Hi Widewing,
The 110 wasnt a fighter??
The 110 played its role as long range and escort fighter for a pretty long time and they wasnt that bad while this. The 110 could carry as much or more bombs than the P38 and when it started to get obsolete as daylight fighter, it played a very successfull role as fighter bomber and night fighter.
Same like the P38 it got trouble with the single engine fighters in the west, but in the east and MTO it got used successful till mid/late 43. From 1941 onward the 110 mainly got used as fighter bomber and long range fighter, same we can say about the P38 in late 1943, when it started to get obsolete as real fighter it got to be a fighter bomber or long range fighter etc. To say the 110 wasnt a fighter is the same like to say the P38 wasnt a fighter, in 1939-41 the 110 did "outclass" most fighters of the world in a similar way like the P38 did in 1941-43.
Even if we dont count the 110, i still think the 190´s played as many different roles as the P38, not allways the same the P38 could fulfill, but others the P38 couldnt. The 190 got used as nightfighter(with and without radar), as torpedo bomber, did carry a bomber as bomb(what bombload is this?), could act as real Stuka and fighter bomber(different rockets, guns and bombs), got used as recognize plane, long range fighter bomber, interceptor (many different guns and rockets and special plating) and of course as a real fighter, if we count the Ta152H as FW190 even as high alt fighter and there was some different performence kits to enable more power in different altitudes(MW50, GM1, special C3 injection, higher boost in low level for fighter bombers). The 190 dont had the range, neighter the bomb load, the P38 couldnt divebomb, dont had a torpedo, dont had different gun sets, dont had different plating sets, dont had different wingspans, dont had air to air rockets(afaik).
Only my opinon!
Greetings,