Author Topic: Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil  (Read 10206 times)

Offline KgB

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2006, 10:17:24 PM »
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Originally posted by Raptor
2 engines, a lot further range, better overall firepower, much heavier payload, better pilot survivability... horrible for war;)

I think p 38 shouldve had something like 110 gun package
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Offline Kweassa

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2006, 01:18:31 AM »
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I think p 38 shouldve had something like 110 gun package


 I think it should have packed just two Hispanos in the nose. That would have given it the advantage of virtually the same amount of firepower as the standard armament at a much less weight, plus the added advantage of two explosive cannon shells impacting the target at close proximities for maximum effect.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2006, 04:29:18 PM »
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
Some interesting pilot accounts i found from various books that survivng WW2 aces have written about their accounts with the P-38 during the war.

Wouldn't be complete without these excerpts from Roger Freeman's book on Zemke.

- oldman (I copied them down some years ago as part of an argument, might as well make them available for this one.)

From “Zemke’s Wolf Pack,” as told to Roger Freeman, Airlife Publishing Ltd. 1988, U.S. printing by Crown Publishers, Inc., ISBN 0-517-57330-X.

[On August 11, 1944 command of the 479th FG became available and was offered to Dave Schilling, the second in command of the 56th.  Zemke told Schilling (at pp. 189-190):]

“I’ve got a group for you.”  Dave’s face sparkled.  “The 479th,” I continued.  “Riddle went down.”  There was an abrupt change of attitude:  “Hell no, not P-38s.”  I told him they were about to transition to P-51s but his disquiet at the prospect of commanding the 479th was expressed in a few choice four-letter words.  This was the response I had anticipated.  “Okay, Dave, I’ll tell you what we’ll do.  You take the 56th and I’ll go to the 479th.”

[So Zemke took over the 479th.  At pages 192-193:]

A careful look at the 479th’s operational record was a first step.  The group had come to England in May [1944] and had set a record by going operational in eleven days, although I suspected it might have been hustled so as to have some missions under its belt by D-Day.  In two and a half months the group had shot down ten enemy aircraft while losing some 35 of its own pilots killed or missing.  True, most of the combat losses had been to ground fire during strafing raids.  Even so, they appeared excessively high and I suspected a weakness in technique and general leadership.

A contributory factor to these high losses was the type of aircraft.  The Lockheed P38 Lightning was heralded as a wonder fighter when it first appeared in 1939, faster than anything else in the sky, very manoeuvrable and with good firepower.  It transpired that the design had some inherent weaknesses that were never fully overcome.  The most serious was tail buffeting in high speed dives which led to restrictions that were a handicap in combat.  Due to the peculiarities of the design aerodynamics, at very high speeds air flow over the cockpit and wing centre section became turbulent and hammered round the tailplane linking the two fuselage booms.  Lockheed and the Air Force tried in vain to cure this:  they never succeeded as far as I know.

A large plane for a fighter, the P-38 could turn as well as most single-engine interceptors at low altitudes and it had good speed.  In the Pacific our people developed a successful technique of employing it against Japanese fighters with great success.  It was popular there by virtue of its range being superior to other American pursuits available during the early war years and, with plenty of over-water flying, two engines were a comfort.  The same should have applied in Europe but the operational circumstances and climatic conditions were different.  Here the P-38 was a big flop, although the Air Force would never admit it as they believed their own propaganda.

The Allison engines were the main trouble.  At low and medium altitudes they were fine, at high altitude they were hopeless.  The design just couldn’t take the combination of extreme cold and high humidity that characterized flight over Europe, especially in winter.  Engine failure had been rife during the winter of 1943-44 when the P-38s really began to see action.  The position had improved, but they still were not 100 per cent.  There was a standing joke that the P-38 was designed with two engines so you could come back on one.  A P-38 mechanic’s life was not easy, the type demanded a hefty maintenance load.

There were several good points about the type.  Without doubt it was an excellent gun platform.  All five guns - four 50s and a 20 mm cannon - were in the nose compartment ahead of the pilot.  This made the estimation of range much less critical as, unlike the P-47 and P-51 with their wing mounted guns, the fire didn’t converge.

[On August 25, 1944 the 479th flew a mission “way out near the Baltic coast.”  At pages 196-197:]

On the same mission I experienced one of the P-38's known problems.  We had just arrived above the B-24s we were to support when a small gaggle of Me 109s was seen below.  Pressing the R/T button and giving my flight the order to follow me, an abrupt roll into a dive was made and as the speed built up the throttles retarded so as not to exceed the given dive limitations for the aircraft.  To my astonishment both engines cut out.  Thrusting the throttles open brought them to life again only to produce engine over-speeding.  As I wrestled with the power settings the revolutions on one and then the other engine fluctuated wildly.  All consideration of engaging the enemy in combat was given up as attempts were made to master the bucking Lightning.  It took a great deal of sky and a much lower and warmer altitude to effect stability.  What had happened was that the oil in the hydraulically controlled turbo-supercharger regulators had jellified in the low temperatures, the sluggish operation leading to imbalance.  A not uncommon happening with P-38s in high-altitude operations over Europe.  I wasn’t the only member of my group to fly home streaming blue smoke that day - the air was blue inside my cockpit too.

[About a week later the 479th began transitioning to P-51s.]

storch

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2006, 04:37:32 PM »
The P38 was a miserable failure as a fighter and basically just fodder for the FWs.  In ah thats a different story ask alt-alt he is a P38 cartoon hero.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2006, 04:58:21 PM »
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Originally posted by storch
The P38 was a miserable failure as a fighter and basically just fodder for the FWs.  In ah thats a different story ask alt-alt he is a P38 cartoon hero.


Could you at least do a little research before you make a stupid remark like that Storch?

I think we've established that the 38 struggled with the 8th AF in the high alt escort role.  That doesn't mean it was a miserable failure fighting the LW.

the 9th AF flying 38s in ground attack seemed to do fine.  The MTO groups fighting the Luftwaffe seemed to do fine as well.

82nd FG had 544 air to air kills in WW2
1st FG had 440 air to air kills

Those are comparable numbers to any of the other leading fighter groups flying 51s or Jugs.

The 4th FG, for example, flying Spits, Jugs and 51s had 583 air to air kills and they were flying sweeps, escorts etc.  The MTO 38s flew a lot more ground support stuff, yet they're numbers are comparable to the top 8th Groups.

Along with the 14th FG 38 pilots the MTO 38s, fighting the LW turned out 57 "aces'.  Hardly FW fodder.  And these guys were fighting more experienced LW pilots in late 42-43
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 05:02:24 PM by Guppy35 »
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Offline 68Hawk

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2006, 05:14:02 PM »
I've read Zemke's Wolfpack, and those are excellent excerpts.  

As I recall (I read it over 10 years ago, but it is still sitting on my shelf next to Galland) Zemke was a little dissapointed about leaving the P47 for anything, and wasn't particularly thrilled to take up the P51 either.  I seem to remember him lamenting having to leave the Jug, and claiming that a P47 would not have gone down on him, leading to his capture.

The discussion of applications in theaters is most pertinent.  The P38, vs. later German aircraft, just didn't accell in the right areas to make it supreme in the ETO.  It did have good success in reconnaisance and other roles, but couldn't escort as well as mustangs and couldn't withstand groundfire like the jugs.  Note the above admission that most of the 35 losses were to ground fire.  I experience this in game as well.

Vs. Japanese aircraft the P38 had it better off, still retaining a speed advantage over most of them as well as better dive characteristics.  The range and twin engine factors were especially important there too.  

While the overspeed buffetting could probably never have been completely solved, it's too bad they never fixed some of the other problems with the design.  The engines could have been fixed or replaced.  The propeller governors, possibly the biggest falling point of the design (lockheed manuals scream about watching for engine over rev, especially on takeoff or after quick throttle advancement) are something that we don't really have to worry about in game.  The above account of the oil jellifying also includes this malefunction.

Even if Galland hadn't actually flown against the P38 in combat, he would have had a good sense of its capabilities from his other pilots who were up there.  The truth is that the P38 is relatively easy to fight if you know how to force it against it's weaknesses.  A good 38 driver won't let this happen, but the quality of allied airman (overall that is) at the time was probably not the same high standard that it was at the end of the war.  Many pilots were new in theater, their units just having been transferred, or they were replacement pilots fresh out of training.  Let's not forget that they didn't have Soda's aircraft evaluations to look at beforehand.  

And, as a couple people mentioned, not much was a fair match for Galland and his elite JGs.  Not untill Allied airman gained more experience and the good Experten started to dwindle.  (Is there a lobsterrun scenario?  that would be cool)  The p38 probably would have had the most limited of options for escape/evasion, and would have allowed the German Experten to corner it more easily if the pilot weren't on his toes.

Whew, I love history! :cool:
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Offline Panzzer

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Re: The title of this post.
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2006, 05:23:24 PM »
The Germans never called the P-38 "Der Gabelschwanz Teufel" - The Forked Tailed Devil.

Interesting stories in this one, thanks. :)
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2006, 06:24:48 PM »
A quick look at the tally shows the P-38 was able to maintain a 6:1 K/D ratio against the Luftwaffe. There were far too many P-38 pilots who scored plenty of victories against well trained German pilots with plenty of experience for anyone to honestly say the P-38 was inferior in any sense. Lowell, Olds, Ilfrey, Morris, Graham, Blumer, and a host of others. In fact, Blumer likely killed a top German ace in 1944, along with four more from his JG in the same day, and his unit mauled a top German JG so bad it was pulled out of action. So unless you want to say that several German aces and a couple of top German JG's got their tulips whipped by a bunch of young green pilots in a second class ride, you can drop the B.S. about the P-38 not being a first class ride. It just ain't true.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2006, 06:32:31 PM »
Zemke was no doubt a great pilot, one of the best ever. But he was hardly an expert on the P-38. The fact that he allowed his oil temperature to get so low as to congeal the oil in the turbo regulators shows he just plain didn't know his ride very well. It is just that simple. He failed to properly manage his engine operating parameters, and blamed it on the plane as opposed to his lack of knowledge about the plane. Once again, it shows that a pilot who decides he doesn't like a plane, before he ever flies it, and never learns to fly it right, will not succeed in that plane. Had Zemke been flying his plane with the proper settings for manifold pressure, mixture, RPM, oil cooler and radiator doors, it would have responded just fine. Like any other plane, to succeed in the P-38, you had to WANT to fly it, and you had to LEARN to fly it.
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Offline Bruno

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2006, 06:46:12 PM »
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The MTO groups fighting the Luftwaffe seemed to do fine as well.


Quote
82nd FG had 544 air to air kills in WW2


I am not sure why this gets repeated as evidence of the P-38s viability as a fighter or fighter-bomber. For one there are huge wholes in the historic record for the 82nd (and other Ami FG as well) while in North Africa.

A respected author on another forum has went into great lengths researching the claims of Kurt 'Bühlmann' Bühligen while attached to JG 2 in Tunisia. Bühligen claimed some 40 abschuß during this time and has a total of 112 claims confirmed in total, 13 of these were P-38s. Reconstructing these P-38s claims has been impossible due to the lack of detailed, authoritative, historical documentation. However, it seems that the majority of the claims were possible rather then just made-up. Narrowing down the specifics is still underway.

In Fighters over Tunisia by Shores, Ring and Hess there's is mention of the Ami's 'poor record keeping' on top of the current gaps. According to Shores he claims it may have been possible that losses and damage may have gone unrecorded on the days that they happened. As such trying to re-construct an accurate time line is difficult and open to interpretation.

Some will take the easy route and claim that Bühligen must have over claimed. That maybe so, but there are huge gaps in the historic record. P-38 claims by both JG2s Fw's and JG27s Messer's in North Africa hardly show that the P-38 was was anything more then 'adequate'. Certainly it was better then the P-40s and P-39s. I know, what about the fighter-bomber sorties? These are even harder to quantify then air-to-air kills.

The P-38s is fine aircraft and it did well against the obsolete Japanese aircraft. There are occasions were it acquitted itself in outstanding fashion against the Luftwaffe. However, compared to what else the allies had in their arsenal, both in terms of fighters and fighter-bombers, the P-38 was little more then 'adequate'. Even in the Pacific there were 'better' aircraft.

How the P-38s and other aircraft are operated in this game have little bearing as to how well they were successfully operated in real life. I don't wish to get into another romp with the 'P-38 mafia' but if any one looks beyond just what the fan bois post (including myself) and keeps an objective mind as much as possible you may find your own 'acceptable' version of the truth.

FYI Panzer is correct no Luftwaffe airman I have read uses the the term 'Der Gabelschwanz Teufel' when describing the P-38.

Offline Mathman

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2006, 06:46:39 PM »
You guys have convinced me.  This is the best plane of the war:


Offline Ack-Ack

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Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2006, 06:46:46 PM »
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Originally posted by storch
The P38 was a miserable failure as a fighter and basically just fodder for the FWs.  In ah thats a different story ask alt-alt he is a P38 cartoon hero.



Yawn...



ack-ack
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2006, 06:55:40 PM »
The P-38 'tally' consists of nothing more then 'claims'. I am unaware of any study that attempts to match those claims against actual losses. Claims whether they are 'confirmed' or not should be viewed in the correct context.

The Top 5 Luftwaffe P-38 killers claimed:

Schieß claimed 17
Bartels - 14
Bühligen - 13
Puschmann - 9
Kientsch - 9

Only one of those pilots, Schieß, was reported to have been lost due to P-38s

That's a k/d of 62 to 1...

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Enough of this already
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2006, 07:02:41 PM »
Bruno, for about the thousandth time, just the guys I mentioned had CONFIRMED kills, no over claims in their official tally. And when Blumer got his 5 in 15 minutes, there was nothing there but Luftwaffe and P-38's, and one of the top Luftwaffe aces in that area, I think it was Rudy Dassau, was shot down that day, and it is likely that Blumer himself got Dassau.

The B.S. that U.S. confirmed claims (as compared to the higher claims like Lowell's supposed 16 or so) are even remotely more likely to be over claims than the Luftwaffe claims are is just that, B.S. Enough said.
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2006, 07:34:48 PM »
You mean the 'top Luftwaffe ace' Rudolf Dassow of JG 6...?

Top Luftwaffe Squadron JG6 lol...

You so clueless it's not even funny. Jagdgeschwader 6 was made up of converted 110 and bomber pilots. They weren't 'top anything'. Dassow himself wasn't a top 'Luftwaffe ace either'. He flew with ZG 1 and ZG 76 (Zerstörer) flying 110s before being rushed into single engine fighters. His 22 kills claims were all while flying the 110.

However, there's no evidence that he was shot down by ole 'Scrappy. There's a book due out soon that will cover extensively Jagdgeschwader 6.

Quote
The B.S. that U.S. confirmed claims (as compared to the higher claims like Lowell's supposed 16 or so) are even remotely more likely to be over claims than the Luftwaffe claims are is just that, B.S. Enough said.


I never said one set of claims is more credible then the other. I said that there has never been any study to match claims with losses. I have posted in numerous threads about the reliability of claims on all sides. Do a search.

I agree enough is enough. You P-38 fan bois are so desperate to show how good the P-38 was that you create 'top Luftwaffe aces' and 'top Luftwaffe geschwader' out of thin air.