Author Topic: UK airline bomb plot thwarted  (Read 3310 times)

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #105 on: August 11, 2006, 09:49:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert1
The point is obvious, the region was replete with terrorism before we invaded and that these whackos are not of our creation as you maintain. It's not that hard to figure out, you're a relatively intelligent person, keep trying, you'll get there.


He is FAR from intelligent.   But the rest of your post speaks volumes and obviously the "intelligent one" missed it.  :aok
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Offline Momus--

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« Reply #106 on: August 11, 2006, 09:49:48 AM »
Would you like me to cut and paste a hundred line non-sequitur in response or are you actually going to explain the point of your spam?

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #107 on: August 11, 2006, 10:01:07 AM »
I see you're both having trouble with your reading comprehension. My intial post was in response to Seagoon's comment regarding activity specifically in Iraq. It quoted a fairly detailed report from a quite credible agency that directly undermines Seagoons assertion. A source for the information was provided. None of what either of you have subsequently posted comes even near to addressing that argument.

Care to try again?

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #108 on: August 11, 2006, 10:03:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
Would you like me to cut and paste a hundred line non-sequitur in response or are you actually going to explain the point of your spam?


His point is simple. Your position that the invasion of Iraq created more terrorism is complete and utter Bravo Sierra. Even the latest incident has nothing to do with Iraq. The perpetrators appear to be UK citizens of Pakistani extraction, either 1st or 2nd generation.

As to who would roll over and suck what up, we know exactly what you'd do, you've covered that pretty well.
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Offline Edbert1

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« Reply #109 on: August 11, 2006, 10:09:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
I see you're both having trouble with your reading comprehension.  

Sigh...

Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
My intial post was in response to Seagoon's comment regarding activity specifically in Iraq. It quoted a fairly detailed report from a quite credible agency that directly undermines Seagoons assertion. A source for the information was provided.  

I read it, nothing there other than opinion, and I am NOT invalidating opinion, just recognizing that opinion does not equal fact. Karaya's post on the other hand it almost entirely fact without one person's opinion being interjected and you discount it as being pointless.

Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
None of what either of you have subsequently posted comes even near to addressing that argument.

In your opinion...fine. But I'm sure that many who read this will see otherwise. Let me summarize...

1.) You say that Islamofascists are the result of our invasion of Iraq.
2.) You paste an op-ed peice to support that theory.
3.) We say they existed before said invasion.
4.) You hurl personal insults.
5.) I call you out for resorting to personal insults.
6.) I say that appeasing terrorists will fail since appeasing violent sociopaths has never worked before.
7.) You hurl more personal attacks.
8.) Karaya posts a long list of HISTORICAL FACTS to support the notion that there were terrorists before we invade Iraq.
9.) You fail to see the point.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #110 on: August 11, 2006, 10:42:40 AM »
Within the context of Iraq Virgil, I think you're certainly wrong. Why don't you you look at the evidence I linked to and tell me why you think the CSIS is mistaken. Here are direct links to the reports I quoted.

Link,  Link

Now, regarding the question as to whether invading Iraq has caused terrorism in general to increase, that is also arguable. Certainly, terrorism has increased hugely across the globe since the invasion, even according to the US State Department's own figures and excluding the attacks by the Iraqi insurgents.  I've provided links to these reports previously and can dig them out if you would like to see them again.

Now, we can argue as to whether the Iraq invasion has caused this increase or not; there is certainly some evidence to suggest that that might be the case anyway. The main point however is that, after five years of the pursuit of the war on terror, the problem has been made an order of magnitude worse, not better. Now why do you think that is?

Edbert,

That wasn't an Op-Ed but an article summarising other reports on the subject. Judging by the amount of time it took for you to post I don't believe you even looked beyond the first page.

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You say that Islamofascists are the result of our invasion of Iraq.


No. I said the insurgency in Iraq has created militants where non existed previously and that most of these are not global jihadists but home-grown Iraqis. The reports cited bear this out.

Quote
You paste an op-ed peice to support that theory.


No, I posted an article that linked to a specialist agency that had reported on the subject.

Quote
We say they existed before said invasion.


Which is an opinion for which you haven't offered a shred of supporting evidence. I'll ask again. How many Iraqis were implicated in any of the attacks  Masherbrum listed?

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You hurl personal insults.


And labelling someone an appeaser without even directing your efforts towards their argument isn't a personal attack?

Quote
I say that appeasing terrorists will fail since appeasing violent sociopaths has never worked before.


You're really the only one talking about appeasement. Great straw man you've got there.

Quote
You hurl more personal attacks.


If you can't take it don't dish it out to start with.

Quote
Karaya posts a long list of HISTORICAL FACTS to support the notion that there were terrorists before we invade Iraq.


Which is a total nonsense because not once ever have I suggested that there was no terrorism before Iraq was invaded. If I have you should be able to find a quote. Go for it.

Quote
You fail to see the point.


I see it all to clearly thanks.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #111 on: August 11, 2006, 11:02:00 AM »
i think CSIS is wrong, source, ME

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #112 on: August 11, 2006, 11:04:07 AM »
Given the Metropolitan Police force's recent record in counter-terrorism, I'd hold off on the congratulations until their latest suspects have actually been tried and found guilty.
IIRC there was much rejoicing in here when they excuted that Brazilian electrician. Strike one for The War On Terror (TWOT) there: his only crime appears to have been looking a bit foreign.
There was no doubt wooting aplenty in here when they shot that Bangladeshi guy in the chest before releasing him and his brother without charges.

Perhaps we should all heed the wise words of the President: "Fool me once shame on... shame on you... fool me... can't get fooled again."
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #113 on: August 11, 2006, 11:26:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
Which is an opinion for which you haven't offered a shred of supporting evidence. I'll ask again. How many Iraqis were implicated in any of the attacks  Masherbrum listed?

I see it all to clearly thanks.


Tell that to the Iraqi families who are falling victim to the Suicide Attacks.  They appreciate the US being there and deposing Saddam.   But then again, what do I know?  I only have 3 friends serving over there in different regions and all say the same thing.   The Iraqi people WANT us here.  

But, you are a different breed.  You will "by hook or by crook" try to be right no matter how wrong you are.  

As far as Reading Comprehension, I read 1700 words a minute with 100% comprehension.   What's next, a spelling contest?
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Offline Momus--

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« Reply #114 on: August 11, 2006, 12:40:12 PM »
I take it that in spite of your reading comprehension skills you can't actually answer the question then Masherbrum? Ok, I won't dwell on it.

Incidentally, it isn't just the CSIS that takes the view that most insurgents in Iraq are actually Iraqis and not foreigners. Senior figures in the US military apparently share the same view.

Link for your review.

I'm not going to disagree that many locals your soldier friends meet welcome the US presence in Iraq. Serving british army friends of mine tell me the same thing. They also tell me though that the insugency is very much a consequence of the occupation, which is exactly what the  US Major General admits in the article I've linked to above. This was the central point I was making before we descended into mud flinging

Now you can assume I'm post on this subject because of political partisanship or to score points but you are totally wrong. I am posting this because whatever the actual scale of the threat, I want to see militant Islam beaten and because I think the policies being pursued are illogical, counter-productive and wasteful of both lives and material. Moreover, I think that the situation nearly five years on from the 9/11 attacks demonstrates this succinctly.

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #115 on: August 11, 2006, 01:24:17 PM »
Momus,

You want to see militant islamics beaten. Ok, how?

As to the premise that the war in iraq has created vast numbers of terrorists. Please show the population figures for terrorists before the war. Until you can show that population has increased over what was already there, the statement is rather specious.

One thing that has been documented is the amount of weapons and munition they have expended and the number of insurgents of all nationalities that have been killed or captured. One might draw the conclusion that the number of terrorists in the world has been dropping rather than rising since there is no such census data that I am aware of for terrorists.

I'm not arguing either way, I just want to see the debate kept relevent.
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #116 on: August 11, 2006, 01:35:40 PM »
Better.   Link was a good read.  My question of the "99.9%", are these *****e or Suuni?   I understand the two groups quarrel constantly and have for a long time.   I do understand that Western Values aren't liked by the cultures of the Middle East.   I have read of instances that during the Gulf War, buses taking the US Troops to the front staging areas had no US Flags on them because the Saudis wouldn't allow it.   So in a way, I could definately see some issues with some Iraqi's wishing "them to go away" per se.  

I've called a truce on the mud slinging.  <>
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Offline Momus--

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« Reply #117 on: August 11, 2006, 02:56:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
You want to see militant islamics beaten. Ok, how?


There's no simple answer but here is a very quick and dirty summary of how I would maybe go about it.

1. Encourage political and economic liberalisation in as many Arab states as possible. By this, I don't mean *forcing* democracy on them. That has to develop as a natural consequence of the liberalisation process or else it risks implosion. One of the elements most fundamental for a secular liberal democracy is a large and prosperous middle-class, which is a natural consequence of economic development.  This is why there are so many problems in Iraq today, because the Ba'ath Party had largely co-opted the secular, professional classes, who then lost all their social status when the regime collapsed. This was the biggest single failure of the Iraqi operation; what we should have done was allied ourselves with the Ba'athists; not the Saddams but the mid level professionals, soldiers, civil servants, all the people who make a modern state function. Iraq is an unknown quantity now; the best we can hope for is that it remains stable long enough for civil society to take root again. Nevertheless, this should be the attitude to take with regard to places like Syria and Egypt. Economic development is what the west and the USA in particular does best; prosperous people don't turn easily to extremism, so focus on incentives that help raise the lives of ordinary people.

2. Kill as many of the extremist leaders as possible but do it quietly and without fuss. Don't go announcing our intentions on CNN or Fox, and don't claim credit when we kill one. The west holds all the aces when it comes to special forces, so use them. Otherwise train secularly-inclined muslims to kill them for us.  I would also look at killing-off all of the Wahabist clerics in Saudi Arabia and I'd serve notice on the Saudi Royal family that the good times are over and unless they liberalise the Kingdom, we arm the Syrians, the Iraqis and the Egyptians and let them loose on the Sauds. The Saudi Sheiks are probably one of the most despised groups in the region; the other Arab states wouldn't need much encouragement, and most importantly of all, the rest of the Muslim world would see it as an internal arab matter and not the west imposing it's will on the muslims. This is important.

3. Get used to expensive oil. It isn't going to get any cheaper with a liberalised middle-east milking extraction for tax revenue. It's going to run out sooner or later anyway, so get used to using less or even better using alternatives. Stop propping up corrupt local elites for the purpose of guaranteeing cheap oil. That is one of the main causes of today's problems.

4. Cut the link between the hardcore of extremists and the masses from which they recruit. This means removing the percieved injustices with which they rally support. If they can't recruit they will whither and die. Solve the Israel-Palestinian problem once and for all. Use some of the $billions currently being spent on a Iraq to compensate all the jews displaced from arab countries and the arabs displaced from Israel. Stop worrying about who started the conflict and instead focus on what is needed to end it. This would undermine people like Hamas who depend on arabs being rat-poor and desperate for their popular support. As well as undermining the Islamists massively, it would also hurt the few the Israeli ideologues who like to keep a low-level conflict going in order to maintain their colonisation of the West Bank under the pretext of security. Both these groups want the conflict to on for as long as possible, so deal with it ASAP.

5. Recognise that when dealing with the Arabs, perception is everything. The main message of the jihadis is that Islam is under attack by the west. Unfortunateley, we have a habit of acting in ways that confirm this message. At every step of the way, it must appear that change is being driven internally, and that if blood needs to be shed, it must be presented as a muslim vs muslim affair.

6. Offer the lifting of economic sanctions against Iran in return for the ending of their nuclear program. The resulting economic stimulus would spell the  end of the mullah's stranglehold over the urban poor and the impoverished middle-classes and you'd see genuine internal regime change there within a decade.

7. Have faith in western culture and its power to spread into the lives of these people, but don't force it down their throats. They must feel that they are adopting our ways of their own volition.

Like I said, quick and dirty, but It's Friday night and there's beer in the refrigerator. :)

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #118 on: August 11, 2006, 02:56:44 PM »
Momus,

I would have thought that following violent rioting throughout the Islamic world following the publication cartoons in a Danish newspaper, which featured average Muslims not affiliated with terrorist groups carrying signs like "Behead all Blasphemers" that the intelligentsia's darling "tiny minority of extremists" theory would have been shredded and it would have become clear even in Europe that we are dealing with a movement that is set on eliminating any competing worldview by whatever means necessary. But apparently the Western "it must be political and all our fault" self-loathing theory dies hard.

Alright then, lets take the example of a July 28th survey of Indonesian Muslims in the Jakarta post. As you are well aware, Indonesia is about as far from Iraq as it is possible to be and still be in a predominantly Muslim nation. Indonesians certainly aren't fighting any "foriegn invasion" and yet here are the results of the survey:  

Quote
Up to 1.3 percent of Indonesian Muslims nationwide admit using violence against people or objects they consider contradictory to their beliefs, a survey found, with more than 40 percent ready to wage war for their faith.

Acts of violence in the survey on religion and violence by the Center for Islamic and Social Studies (PPIM) ranged from 0.1 percent of respondents admitting their involvement in demolishing or arson of churches constructed without official permits, to 1.3 percent who committed "intimidation" against those they considered had blasphemed Islam.

The survey spanned 1,200 Muslims in 30 of the country's 33 provinces.


And exactly how is the Islamic insurgency in Thailand which has claimed 1,500 lives the fault of America and England? (or Indonesia, Or Sudan, or Darfur, or Northern Nigeria, or Chechnya, or Western China, or etc., etc., etc.) Is it even remotely possible that the existence of a worldwide Jihad since the seventh century might just have something to do with Islam? Maybe?

As far as the ongoing Muslim Brotherhood argument over here or there, that's the result of reading the Jihadists and organizations like SITE that monitor them. The argument naturally flows from Hasan al Bana's two stage manifesto for the Muslim brotherhood groups:

"Our task in general is to stand against the flood of modernist civilization overflowing from the swamp of materialistic and sinful desires. This flood has swept the Muslim nation away from the Prophets leadership and Koranic guidance and deprived the world of its guiding light. Western secularism moved into a Muslim world already estranged from its Koranic roots, and delayed its advancement for centuries, and will continue to do so until we drive it from our lands. Moreover, we will not stop at this point, but will pursue this evil force to its own lands, invade its Western heartland, and struggle to overcome it until all the world shouts by the name of the Prophet and the teachings of Islam spread throughout the world. Only then will Muslims achieve their fundamental goal, and there will be no more 'persecution and all religion will be exclusively for Allah.

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Offline Momus--

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« Reply #119 on: August 11, 2006, 03:07:23 PM »
Seagoon, none of what you're posting in anyway undermines the information I posted on Iraq and the insurgency. You think it's a manifestation of a global jihad. The facts apparently say it's a local affair.

Regarding the rest of your post, supply the source you're citing and I'll get back to you.
 
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