Remove drones from bombers

[Krusty]

Okay the reason bombers have drones doesn't apply anymore. They are not this defenseless little thing that they used to be.

Last night was a PERFECT example of why bombers need drones revoked.

15K B24s were hitting a port. I'm in a TA152 flying toward them. I'm 15k as well. I'm on full WEP and I can't close into icon range until they turn around for another pass at the port. THEN I can barely keep up. I'm 1.5k out for 5+ minutes at full damn throttle, doing 350+ in a Ta152, and the bombers are as fast as I am! This is bullcrap!

Hell the B29 could barely do 350 steady! Yet every bomber in this game does well more than it  ever did in any historical mission (EVER). Add to that the fact that any 1 bomber can fire up to 7 50cal guns in any direction, then multiply it by 3 (3 planes in formation) and you get 21 guns that kill instantly.

I came up on a bomber set last night and in a spit16, unloaded directly into the wing root of a lancaster. All I did was blow his bomb bay door of (rriiiiight, suuuuure... 80+ 20mm and the only thing that comes off is the bomb bay) and in his first ping, literally his first ping he gives me a pilot wound AND rips my tail off. Lag was nonexistent.


So you have bombers that are nearly impossible to catch when flying the planes that were best able to catch them in real life. You have bombers that are 4x more lethal than normal (up to 4 gun positions firing at target at any given time), multplied times 3 planes (12 times more lethal), and you have a problem with gameplay balance.

Bombers are unbalanced. They need to be slowed down, or stripped down.

I don't see us slowing the bombers down anytime soon. So we need to remove the formation option from bombers.

I've been on many HQ raids where the enemy were struggling to keep up. sure after 10-15 minutes they might kill you, but that's 10 minutes of constant chase.

I've been AFTER many HQ raids as well! Unless you're flying a Me163 at 650mph, there's often slim to no chance you can catch up to the enemy in a tail chase.

If this were the case, WW2 would have ended in 1942 with complete bomber supremacy going to the allies.

EDIT: Hell, or even ended in 1940 with complete bomber supremacy going to the axis!!

[mussie]

How about a compremise Krusty...

Apply a Perk requirment for drone usage...

Except for those on the two week trial (either that or give them free perks to start with)

[E25280]

I will agree with the point that bomber formations are too fast.  Historically bombers flew slower to enable the pilots to more easily maintain tight formations.  Not so in the game for your drones.  I never understood how I could maintain full throttle through a turn, almost lose my drones, and yet they eventually catch up to me.  Take away the "overspeed" option of the drones (including their ability to out-accelerate the single bomber).  Lead must then slow down to maintain a tight formation.  Problem solved.

[gobucks]

You obviously havent been chasing me lately.  I have no problem getting shot down while in a bomber.  Even with the many guns, I have seen many pilots successfully knock out a couple boxes and still land their kills.

I have to respectfully disagree with your proposition.  I believe the AH2 people have gone to great lengths to simulate bomber formations.  I have viewed many a show on the military channel about bombing runs during WWII.  Most of the raids had no fewer than 40 planes.  Since teamwork is rare in this game, I believe by adding drones the AH2 programmers are just trying to add an element of realism to the game.  

If anything, maybe they should add a few drones to the formation.  Wouldn't it be great to take 10-15 drones over a target and just wipe it off the map.

The only possible discrepancy with history is the target hit percentages.  Very, very few bombing runs actually hit their targets with one pass.  This is quite simple in this game.  I am not suggesting to make the targetting process harder, I am simply pointing out the fact.

The reason they had to have such large formations is because accuracy was so poor back in the 1940's.

Sorry to ramble on, but I had some time to kill and I wanted to add my 2 cents.

Salute Krusty.

[mussie]

Originally posted by E25280
Lead must then slow down to maintain a tight formation.  Problem solved.

Dam thats a good idea, makes a lot of sense to me....

That way ppl who want to fly the pants off a Buff still can but they must do it with out Drones...

I like this idea so much that I vote this idea to be:
Best Buff Suggestion Of 2005

[doobs]

Originally posted by mussie
I like this idea so much that I vote this idea to be:
Best Buff Suggestion Of 2005

What year is it down under?

[Bronk]

I agree with mussie.
Drop a perk on each drone ..ooh and lower the eny the higher the perk.

I'll give an example of why it need adding.
Was defending  a gv base last night. Guy comes in with lancs drop hangers . Then proceeds to dive bomb remaining gvs.  As soon as all gv were gone he bails out of buffs.   5-7 min later here comes the m3. I'll bet it was the same guy.

So yes perk the drones give em a reason to live.


Bronk

[mussie]

Originally posted by doobs
What year is it down under?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH CRAP

[Krusty]

Perks: That does nothing to stop the fact that folks with millions of bomber perks (and no  desire to waste them on Ar234s) won't be affected in the least. The bombers will still be faster than 70% of the entire planeset at most atltitudes.

Drone overspeed: That doesn't really solve the problem either. The drones aren't really flying. They're on an invisible beam. They follow that beam better than any human pilot could. They turn tighter losing less E, that's how they get in there and stay with the pilot after a turn. When they lose an engine they fall behind fairly quickly.

The problem is that these planes are 12x as lethal as any single given bomber was in real life. They are 1000 times more accurate (and that's not so much a problem -- the balance is set up so no one bomber can shut down an airfield or HQ).

The problem is: Once level you cannot catch them. If you're within 1k range any single hit from the bomber gunners can kill you from any angle.

My suggestion (some time ago) was to give bombers a higher fuel burn, so they have to take more gas, and suffer flight performance, or they have to take less gas and cruise. 25% gas lasts an hour in the MA in the "big three" bomber set. Nobody seems to like that idea.

[Dichotomy]

Krusty

[Stampf]

(Originally posted by E25280
Lead must then slow down to maintain a tight formation. Problem solved.)


Now that's good reading.  Best idea that this player has seen on the boards regarding bombers.  And everything Krusty says is too true.  And I agree HT modeled the bomber formations the way he did, based on the historical difficulties involved in taking on "high altitude" formations of bombers.  Of course in the game buff pilots use this (certainly when adding a competent gunner) to create this three ship leviathon that can out pace and out gun persuing interceptors. Not good.  Short of removing them altogether however, slowing the drones down ( so lead must do so to keep tight ) AND perking them will certainly help even this out some.  

As it is now, it's hardly worth engaging buffs if they have any range and\or alt. advantage.  It's damaging a huge part of the game in it's core essance as a WWII Airwar game.

$.02 in.

[mussie]

As it is now, it's hardly worth engaging buffs if they have any range and\or alt. advantage. It's damaging a huge part of the game in it's core essance as a WWII Airwar game.

Stampf in my own opinion I think your statment is a bit excessive....

A while back I was upping from a field and as I was leaving the ground a flight of 24's at 25 K were dropping.

I made chase F4-U4 and caught up to him about 25 minutes later, I got all three and glided back home....

Was it worth it Not really was it satisfying HELL YEAH.....

Dive bombing buffs
Suicide Buff runs into CV's
Buffs dropping ord through their frames
Buff and Fighters running on full military power all day
Fighters with effectivly unlimited Wep
All of the above damage the game (at least the immersion factor)

But drones dont, they add imersion to it....

[BlueJ1]

Attack the bombers from high and from the front or one of the sides. You will make minemeat of the all 3 bombers. Rinse and Repeat. Problem solved.

[BlueJ1]

Originally posted by Stampf
(Originally posted by E25280

As it is now, it's hardly worth engaging buffs if they have any range and\or alt. advantage.  It's damaging a huge part of the game in it's core essance as a WWII Airwar game.

$.02 in.

Restated.

As of now, its hardly worth engaging fighters if they have any range and\or alt. advantage.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by BlueJ1
Attack the bombers from high and from the front or one of the sides. You will make minemeat of the all 3 bombers. Rinse and Repeat. Problem solved.

You miss the point, BlueJ.

If you're already above them, already in front of them, fine, sure, whatever. If you've got alt on ANYTHING you can catch it.

The problem is that one of THE FASTEST and MOST LETHAL planes ever designed is unable to catch B24s at full throttle, from co alt and co-E situation. Then after 20 minutes if it can close in past 1k distance it has to fire 50+ 30mm and 100+ 20mm to make a flap fall off, whereas the bombers just fire a single burst and kill the plane.

The system is very unbalanced. I've only run across bombers from head-on, with more E, or from high above in 10% of all the cases I've seen them in the past.. oh... 2 years. I consistently get more bomber kills than any type (b24s, b17s, lancs). It's not like I have no experience in the matter. I have lots of experience, and 90% of it is the same old rehashed problem: they're too damned fast. Gunners are too damned lethal.