Author Topic: Improve the P-47  (Read 11301 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #180 on: October 14, 2006, 07:33:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
I'd bet that Mach number wasn't a factor below 20k for those gentlemen because they just didn't reach the speeds needed to hit high enough Mach numbers below 20k, but at Reno, with density altitudes probably about 7500' i'd bet a stock airframe P-38 would be in the range of Vuh-uh if it was running at a competetive speed (about Mach 0.65 - 0.7?).  Of course i'm no expert & those guys who handle the racing planes are.  It surprised the crap out of me when they broke 500, especialy at low altitudes & with the all the turns, you'd have to guess they can do even a bit more traveling just straight ahead...i think i'd like them to let one of the stormbird.com 262s race, just to see it finish way back lolol


I'll have to look it up, or maybe Widewing will have it handy, but I'm thinking Levier was exceeding critical Mach substantially in compression tests and exceeding 500MPH below 20K during the pullout. And remember that the critical Mach figure was for 1G. The Lockheed dive tests were VERY severe, and extensive. I know that Warren Bodie had copies of or access to the log books, and maybe Widewing can post what was in them, as he knows Warren Bodie a lot better than I do.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline HoHun

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« Reply #181 on: October 14, 2006, 08:23:32 AM »
Hi Hilts,

>I'd have to look at the charts, but the P-51 for example was down to around 900-1100 HP at 27K, so they weren't making enough boost to make heat or power up high.

Hm, I haven't looked it up yet either, but the P-51B first used a higher-geared supercharger and got quite impressive very high altitude performance from it. The Spitfire IX had a similarly high full throttle height at first, and both types were using intercoolers (or aftercoolers).

>Now that I understand exactly where you wanted to mount the intercooler, it has a better chance of working that way, but I doubt you can  get enough air through it to make it efficient

Hm, I should be able to get the same amount of air through it as for the turbo-supercharger as all cross sections of the system remain unchanged, and the engine will not require any more air than before.

>I still don't think you could make the P-47 perform as well as it did without the turbocharger.

It's probably going to be a close thing, and I'm certainly going to lose some performance in the region between low gear and high gear full throttle height. A certain amount of performance loss would be acceptable to get the desired increase.

However, after Krusty posted the side-view that shows that the P-47D still had room for a good amount fuel without removing the turbo-supercharger, the mechanically-supercharger P-47 has lost some of its attractiveness since room for fuel was the main point of pulling the turbine.

>I just don't think you could put a big enough supercharger on it or spin a smaller one fast enough.

I believe size would not be a problem since the R-2800 has a much larger frontal area than the Merlin, and the Merlin manages to "hide" the supercharger almost completely. The R-2800 needs more air, but it's much larger, too.

However, something I hadn't thought of before: It might be that we don't have any suitable mechanical supercharger "off the shelf" in 1943. The R-2800 as used in the F6F and F4U is not sufficiently supercharged to compete with the turbine, and I don't know if there were larger superchargers available. As it takes some time to design and manufacture one, that might kill the project (unless we allow a longer lead time).

(With turbo-superchargers, it was not uncommon to mount two per engine, but that was greatly aided by the uncomplicated way of driving two turbines by simply piping half of the cylinders' exhaust to each. One could use two mechanically driven, smaller superchargers, but only at a cost of a complex drive train. I'm not aware of any actual application like that.)

>The carb fire got so bad that it burned a substantial section of the fuselage and parts of the wing, and it was in danger of spreading to the fuel system. The smoke got so bad in the cockpit that Lad said he could barely see or breathe.

That sounds worse than I imagined. Good thing he put it down before anything happened to the structure!

>LLoyds of London does not require that Steve Hinton be the only pilot in command of "Glacer Girl" just for fun.

Hm, reminds me of something John Deakin mentioned (or maybe I should say "preached"): With the passing away of the "old" generation who still have the professional skills to make Warbirds work (and fly them), it's getting harder and harder for the operators to keep the aircraft flying. It seems that despite all encouragement by the CAF and other organisations, they can't get enough enthusiasts to learn some of the required skills :-(

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #182 on: October 14, 2006, 08:40:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
I'd bet that Mach number wasn't a factor below 20k for those gentlemen because they just didn't reach the speeds needed to hit high enough Mach numbers below 20k, but at Reno, with density altitudes probably about 7500' i'd bet a stock airframe P-38 would be in the range of Vuh-uh if it was running at a competetive speed (about Mach 0.65 - 0.7?).  Of course i'm no expert & those guys who handle the racing planes are.  It surprised the crap out of me when they broke 500, especialy at low altitudes & with the all the turns, you'd have to guess they can do even a bit more traveling just straight ahead...i think i'd like them to let one of the stormbird.com 262s race, just to see it finish way back lolol


Hi,

the mach numbers wasnt a problem below 20k simply cause the Mach 1 in lower alt (less cool air) is not the same speed like Mach 1 in high alt(cool air).

Mach 1 at 20°C is around 1235km/h (768ph), so Mach 0,7 = 537mph.
At -50 degree(supposed to be in 10km alt) Mach1 is only around 1079km/h and so Mach0,7 decrease to 470mph.

Since the Reno Airrace is rather in low level and at a temperature rather above 20° the mach problems shouldnt be a real problem.

Greetings,

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #183 on: October 14, 2006, 08:47:28 AM »
Agreed, there are too few around to pass along the skills. Sadly, it is also a question of money. It takes a lot of hours to get proficient, and that takes time, and more importantly fuel plus wear and tear on planes. The CAF apparently is having trouble even keeping what they have flying now maintain, judging by the number of recent mechanical failures that have resulted in crashes, some fatal and also destroying planes as well. And even great pilots in well maintained planes make tragic errors, as recently demonstrated close to home here when Art Vance was killed and the F6F-5 from Planes of Fame was destroyed. A great man and a great plane were lost just miles from my home. I go by there about 5 or 6 times a year, and it bothers me every time.

I have always said that if I hit the lottery big, I'd buy a warbird (a P-38, no doubt), but I'd also buy a trainer, and pay Steve Hinton whatever he wanted to teach me to fly as well as he does before I ever even taxied my prized warbird. I told him that a year or so ago, when we were standing next to "Glacier Girl". I've talked to my uncle, who has thousands of hours, about learing to fly, but I don't have the time or money right now. If I did, I'd get him to teach me, and I'd get my IFR and my twin rating before I ever flew any real distance, so that I'd be prepared for weather or other problems.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Charge

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« Reply #184 on: October 14, 2006, 01:23:29 PM »
"The truth is, the longer the duct work for the intercooler, the more turbo lag you have, because you have a longer distance for the pressure change to travel. You mount the intercooler where it is the most efficient at removing heat, because that is the most important factor."

As I side note: IMO the lag is not a problem in aircraft as you do not really throttle it much, and if you do, you do not need immediate respose as you do in a car.

-C+
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Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #185 on: October 14, 2006, 01:48:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I'd get my IFR and my twin rating before I ever flew any real distance, so that I'd be prepared for weather or other problems.


ME with instrument rating doesn't guarantee you'll be prepared for problems.  It just means you'll have the potential for twice the problems in IFR conditions.

I just wish there was some way to simulate the difference in performance for a P-47D with supercharger vs. turbo.  Is there a way to plug Hellcat engine performance numbers into a P-47D airframe and see what the difference would be?

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #186 on: October 14, 2006, 02:56:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
ME with instrument rating doesn't guarantee you'll be prepared for problems.  It just means you'll have the potential for twice the problems in IFR conditions.



No, but getting IFR rated means if I hit weather and IFR conditions I'll have at least SOME idea what I'm supposed to be doing.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline HoHun

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« Reply #187 on: October 15, 2006, 05:13:55 PM »
Hi Hilts,

>Sadly, it is also a question of money. It takes a lot of hours to get proficient, and that takes time, and more importantly fuel plus wear and tear on planes.

Roger that!

I recently read a quite interesting book, "On Men and Mustangs", about two brothers who built a 2/3 scale Mustang replica. Tom Short had originally decided to buy a real Warbird in 1970, when the prices were steeply rising but still affordable, but his brother Thayne suggested building a replica instead. With a view on the irreplacable nature of the "real thing" and the increasing operation cost, Tom considered that the better option, and together they built an absolutely neat replica (which took years).

They had started off with plans for a steel-tube fuselage with glass fiber skin, and teamed up with Harold Dale, an aircraft designer who had worked at North American on the original P-51, to design a complete plane according to their requirements.

Their declared goal was to produce "a plane that will look, sound, feel and fly exactly like a P-51 Mustang". They probably got very near to perfection in that regard (and could probably have gotten even closer if they had found a suitable V-12 engine instead of the V-8 they had to rely on). Another goal was to make the design a standard kit in order to make it easier for other builders to get results quickly and at a reasonable price, but I guess that never worked out as planned.

However, I think they took a very interesting route, and it's telling that even in 1970, Warbirds were slipping out of the financial reach of rather well-off people. Tom Short had actually decided on a Mustang as real Warbird first because it was one of the more economic WW2 aircraft around. Now we've got 2006, and the development he observed has continued for more than three decades ...

Replicas have not been the breakthrough the Shorts have hoped for, but they have not vanished from the scene either ... maybe they're going to play a bigger role in the future.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #188 on: October 15, 2006, 05:22:43 PM »
Hi Debonair,

>at Reno, with density altitudes probably about 7500' i'd bet a stock airframe P-38 would be in the range of Vuh-uh if it was running at a competetive speed (about Mach 0.65 - 0.7?).  

Reno is at about 5000 ft, and 500 mph TAS at that altitude work out to about Mach 0.67 (on a standard day).

As Hilts pointed out, the severity of the Mach problems depend on the G load, and as the Reno races include rather steep turns (I don't know the actual G figures, but from the bank angles evident in the photographs, they're not neglegible :-), a non-modified P-38 woud probably be at a disadvantage.

The diving case is a bit different from the racing case because in a dive, you welcome the Mach-induced drag increase and don't mind a certain loss of elevator authority as long as it doesn't result in dangerous pitching tendencies.

For a racer, the Mach-induced drag increase would of course be somewhat counter-productive, and I imagine you'd be more sensitive against control issues as well when going around the pylons at top speed, too.

So it's not just a question of the plain Mach number, but also of what the symptoms are if you "push against the envelope".

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #189 on: October 15, 2006, 05:26:22 PM »
Hi Charge,

>As I side note: IMO the lag is not a problem in aircraft as you do not really throttle it much, and if you do, you do not need immediate respose as you do in a car.

The British Aircraft Purchasing Commission tested the P-38 with turbo-superchargers and found that the turbines need 10 s to spool up from idle to full power. That meant that on take-off, you'd have to hold the P-38 on brakes until the engines were running at full power, or you'd suffer from a rather long  take-off run (because you'd make most of it at less than full power).

With the P-38, the tricycle landing gear made this procedure easy, but I wonder how the P-47 handled it since as a taildragger, it would tend to nose over if you'd run it up to full power ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #190 on: October 15, 2006, 07:09:04 PM »
Seen as how the Model used here for Performance ratings doesn't match the actual Historical ones of the P-47, especially @ Low Alt., as w/ most A/C models used in the game, it's no wonder you wish this.

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #191 on: October 15, 2006, 07:11:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Charge,

>As I side note: IMO the lag is not a problem in aircraft as you do not really throttle it much, and if you do, you do not need immediate respose as you do in a car.

The British Aircraft Purchasing Commission tested the P-38 with turbo-superchargers and found that the turbines need 10 s to spool up from idle to full power. That meant that on take-off, you'd have to hold the P-38 on brakes until the engines were running at full power, or you'd suffer from a rather long  take-off run (because you'd make most of it at less than full power).

With the P-38, the tricycle landing gear made this procedure easy, but I wonder how the P-47 handled it since as a taildragger, it would tend to nose over if you'd run it up to full power ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


I don't recall ever reading about a nose-over of a Tail-dragger going full power while standing on the brakes to get max performance for T/O.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #192 on: October 15, 2006, 07:26:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Col. Flashman
Seen as how the Model used here for Performance ratings doesn't match the actual Historical ones of the P-47, especially @ Low Alt., as w/ most A/C models used in the game, it's no wonder you wish this.


What, specifically, is incorrect with the P-47 performance models?

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #193 on: October 15, 2006, 07:51:21 PM »
Mostly they inability to achieve Max Acelleration & Top Speed @ Sea Level up to 15,000', as w/ the majority of the A/C in AH that I've been experimenting w/ in the Off-line portion of the game.

Unless there is a difference in Performance models between the Off-line & actual combat situations when flying against other players.

I've had the pleasure of getting unofficial stick time, to be able to actually add this to my Log-book would be a pip, in most of the American A/C used in the game from privately owned A/C, Piggyback versions, @ the A/P I flew out of, these were not stripped down either & the researching of actual Combat Pilot reports & interviews there of.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #194 on: October 16, 2006, 02:18:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Col. Flashman
Mostly they inability to achieve Max Acelleration & Top Speed @ Sea Level up to 15,000', as w/ the majority of the A/C in AH that I've been experimenting w/ in the Off-line portion of the game.
 


Performance is modeled from actual test data. Pilot reports are largely useless for modeling aircraft. What data are you using?

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.