Author Topic: lousy fights..  (Read 9798 times)

Offline doc1kelley

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lousy fights..
« Reply #270 on: October 25, 2006, 10:03:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
The quite was in awdoc1's post  

"When I joined the bops back then in RR4 of AWETO"

Doesn't really matter, but it was mentioned :)


That's quite true Guppy.  A lot of squads started out in AW that are here and we had the RR v FR crap that we are now seeing with the Strat/full aspect v the Furballer mindset.  In AirWarrior the Full Realism "purist" looked upon the "Relaxed Realism" players as a cancer and now we are seeing it in Aces High as the "Furballer" v "Strat/everything else player".  They always say that history repeats itself and I guess it's true as this game was born from Airwarrior.  I have to admit that I liked AW much much more.

All the Best...
Jay
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Offline Edbert

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« Reply #271 on: October 25, 2006, 11:08:26 AM »
Just to fill in some development timeline details...

Confirmed Kill came after AirWarrior
Warbirds came after Confirmed Kill
Aces High came after Warbirds

Each one was an obvious (overwhelming actually) improvement over it's predecessor. I'm wondering why you prefer the old game over the new one.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #272 on: October 25, 2006, 11:18:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
Just to fill in some development timeline details...

Confirmed Kill came after AirWarrior
Warbirds came after Confirmed Kill
Aces High came after Warbirds

Each one was an obvious (overwhelming actually) improvement over it's predecessor. I'm wondering why you prefer the old game over the new one.


It's probably best to look at it as a person's "golden age" in a flight sim.  I guess I believe it's the newness of it at the time and the first real exposure to the online flight sim world.

It's not accurate to say airwarrior was a better game, but a lot of us were introduced to this world in that game.  My early time in Airwarrior and the early Nomads time will always be the 'best time' as it was so new and so much fun.  I can still remember individual flights from that time and it's been 10 years now.

I'm sure the guys who started out with numbers for ID's in the very early AW would consider that their 'golden time'.

Expectations change over time but looking for that fun is always there.  The last few months have come close for me in the game to matching that early time, but again, I'm older and a bit more jaded then i was then :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #273 on: October 25, 2006, 11:54:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
the true nature of this greatest of all safety players.  he needs lots of alt and he needs the horde.  ten years of game play experience and yet still a baitfish.



Describing your flying style again?  We know you suck, there is no need to always remind us with each of your posts Storchita.


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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #274 on: October 25, 2006, 12:55:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
Just to fill in some development timeline details...

Confirmed Kill came after AirWarrior
Warbirds came after Confirmed Kill
Aces High came after Warbirds

Each one was an obvious (overwhelming actually) improvement over it's predecessor. I'm wondering why you prefer the old game over the new one.



AW was the better game and AH is definitely the better sim.   I guess it all comes down to what player's perceptions are of the communities of each.  Some think (and I admit that I am one of them) that the AW community was for more cohesive than the community we find ourselves in AH.  But that is just my dos centavos.


ack-ack
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #275 on: October 25, 2006, 01:43:01 PM »
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It's probably best to look at it as a person's "golden age" in a flight sim. I guess I believe it's the newness of it at the time and the first real exposure to the online flight sim world.

It's not accurate to say airwarrior was a better game, but a lot of us were introduced to this world in that game. My early time in Airwarrior and the early Nomads time will always be the 'best time' as it was so new and so much fun. I can still remember individual flights from that time and it's been 10 years now.

I'm sure the guys who started out with numbers for ID's in the very early AW would consider that their 'golden time'.

Expectations change over time but looking for that fun is always there. The last few months have come close for me in the game to matching that early time, but again, I'm older and a bit more jaded then i was then.


I think, and I believe it's an objective opinion, that Air Warrior pre Gamestorm was a superior game environment. I have virtually no experience with Warbirds or CK aside from a single sortie during the beta so I can't speak of that environment.

The reason was that the map design with the central/neutrals concept channeled the action together leading to a merging of interests. Not perfect by any means, and still weak from a pure strat perspective, but more fulfilling from a "fun" action standpoint. I even dropped a few bombs back in the day. Milkrunning was limited due to the basic map structure. Hordes, as such, were automatically forced to converge. That changed with Gamestorm, where a more open “huge” map concept was put in place to make up for server/numbers limitations. As bad as the hordes and milkrunning can be here, it was terrible there. There were days where you just could not find a single entertaining fight at all, even if you flew 2 sectors or more to sneak into one.

As to “sentimental" feelings clouding impressions... I watched AW change in Real Time with real markers of change. I can actually remember, after being away from the game for the first year of gamestorm (starting immediately after the buggy BigWeek introductory mission), rejoining the new "community." On about the first sortie up in the huge new arena with huge new numbers, I followed a high P-51 for over two sectors roughly waiting for it to attack, only to have it die dive bombing an undefended base well to the rear. That was unthinkable as little as a year earlier. I was honestly shocked enough to e-mail a friend who had left AW earlier about it... "Hey Chris, you won't believe what has happened to the game..." Previously, that P-51 would have dropped ord and began the B&Z.  The new, hugely populated GS arenas had changed 180 deg. in about 12 months. Sound familiar AHers :)

AW, in my experience dating back to 1993/94 had always been heavily, almost exclusively, an A2A combat sim with action facilitated by the other elements which clearly played a secondary role. You could hardly find a bombing tutorial, but there were plenty of A2A plane match up tutorials. I believe even this player named "Pyro" (as I recall -- it's been a while) authored some of those tutorials and chat sessions. I seem to remeber at least one on the P-38. And, who today would understand the phrase: "Read Shaw" or actually bother to go out and do that?

That early SVGA AW "air combat" attitude was in full force when I came here about 2001 or so. But, that later Gamestorm "horde/milkrun" attitude gradually started to take over the MA, I would say about the time of the first huge Tiffie raids in 2003 or so. Again, you could see it happeining in real time. Perhaps it was facilitated by the death of AW and the arrival of the GS crowd or it's just a natural progression if the environment allows it to happen or both.

Aces High has better physics, more accurate plane performance models, eye candy that crushes the best AW ever offered and a huge potential to move into something extraordinary on the strat front. However, we still have the limited AW strat model with the big open map model that facilitates least common denominator style of gameplay (as was seen in the Gamestorm era) -- even with the new arenas today. What's frustrating to me is that the tools are there to make AH the "perfect" WW2 air combat simulator -- A2A combat, local tactics and strategy -- far beyond what AW provided even in the SVGA years. I keep paying, upping for an hour here or there and generally enjoying my ROI at $15 a month, while waiting for it to catch back up the SVGA fun quotient and then massively surpass it in the gaming environment area.

One thing I have faith in is that both HT and Pyro are enthusiasts. They have played these games from the beginning, developed several, and not only have a business objective but I believe understand what fun can really mean in these games. Further, and I may be totally off base here, I ultimately believe their idea of fun and mine are probably not too far apart. I get the impression that, even with their limited resources (much preferable to an EA with all its resources to waste), it will all get sorted out in the end.

4261
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 02:15:08 PM by Charon »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #276 on: October 25, 2006, 02:46:32 PM »
so charon....  what you are saying is that if AW would have stayed alive that the guys who ruined it would have stayed there and not come here to ruin AH gameplay?

lazs
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #277 on: October 25, 2006, 04:01:28 PM »
Quote
so charon.... what you are saying is that if AW would have stayed alive that the guys who ruined it would have stayed there and not come here to ruin AH gameplay?


Not necessiarily. The AH environment, especially once the move was made to the big maps, is virtually identical. Similarly, the influx of new players, the "huge" community aspect involved more than just EA (Gamestorm) refugees. I really couldn't say either way, but the elements were in place for it to happen on its own in parallel but perhaps speeded up by the AW refugees.

I was a refugee myself, but I willingly left AW (after 7 years of loyalty) months before the announcement of the shutdown strictly for the gameplay reasons I described above (and that have grown here). Although I cried and whined about the drag gameplay had become on the EA boards (as Oldman might remember) I did leave silently without one of those "goodbye cruel world" posts though :) There were other significant issues as well, like B-17s that could dogfight with Zeros due to modeling quirks.

It seems to me that even after EA killed AW, it was some time before the Horde/Milkrun style fully took hold in AH, and it never reached the extremes you found there. I would perhaps "credit" the AH advertising campaign combined with the same basic game/war environment that facilitates this style gameplay and dilution of community peer pressure more on its own, combined with some influence of former Gamestorm/EA players. Just my worthless $.02 of opinion.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 04:06:52 PM by Charon »

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #278 on: October 25, 2006, 04:13:26 PM »
When taking all the bases became possible in AW is when that change Charon talks about started to take place.  I do remember conversations starting about whether you could take all the bases in one country and effectively take them out of the war.

With the limited base capture and strat stuff in the earlier AW, there never was a thought about 'winning the war'.   If you were feeling goofy, you'd load up and hit the furthest field you could find just to stir things up.  I remember the Nomads taking that gawd awful AW Jug deep and the ruckus we caused.

And again, with the smaller arena cap, you knew most everyone so things were done more for the giggles then to try and provoke anyone.  You knew the score potatos were vulching each other in the VoD (Valley of Dweebs), but for the most part there were fights going much more consistantly with the occasional loss of the Spits when the 17s got the Spit factory down.
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Offline Edbert

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« Reply #279 on: October 25, 2006, 05:30:22 PM »
The way I see it, both of you are pretty much agreeing with lazs then. At least in substance, certainly not in style.

FWIW I think much of the entire situation you describe is reflected in the subject introduced here in "lousy fights". But I also beleive that over time the gamesmanship skills of "teh 1337 g4m3r5" will overcome the constraints within the game structure, pointing right back at my thoughts that this behavior is evolutionary, so I hope that it will be outgrown. Unfortunately rapid increase in the player-base can sometimes exceed evolution's ability to advance the player-base.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #280 on: October 25, 2006, 05:54:41 PM »
I also wonder if it's not just a different type of player. Back in the day there seemed to be a WW2 aviation history enthusiast base. The first thing I ever saved for as a child was Edward Jablonski’s book “Flying Fortress” (about 4th grade or so). The second was Jablonski’s huge work “Airwar” that seductively stared at me for several years from the book club inserts in those combat-focused Ballentine Books that I collected. I was waiting for AW to arrive for about 28 years before I found it -- a dream come true.

Now, I wonder if AH isn't just the next FPS for someone to try out with the added complexity of learning ACM just being a drag. I was motivated to overcome that drag because of my connection to the subject being simulated, but it was really ego bruising (especially after dominating the AI in boxed sims). And while I'm no hot stick today, I can old my own against an average ACM-focused player well enough to get some satisfaction. But just getting to average takes quite a bit of work :)

Charon

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #281 on: October 25, 2006, 06:01:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
I also wonder if it's not just a different type of player. Back in the day there seemed to be a WW2 aviation history enthusiast base. The first thing I ever saved for as a child was Edward Jablonski’s book “Flying Fortress” (about 4th grade or so). The second was Jablonski’s huge work “Airwar” that seductively stared at me for several years from the book club inserts in those combat-focused Ballentine Books that I collected. I was waiting for AW to arrive for about 28 years before I found it -- a dream come true.

Now, I wonder if AH isn't just the next FPS for someone to try out with the added complexity of learning ACM just being a drag. I was motivated to overcome that drag because of my connection to the subject being simulated, but it was really ego bruising (especially after dominating the AI in boxed sims). And while I'm no hot stick today, I can old my own against an average ACM-focused player well enough to get some satisfaction. But just getting to average takes quite a bit of work :)

Charon


Has a familer ring to it.  "Great American Fighter Pilots of WW2" was my first in 2nd grade.  Still have all those Ballentiine books bought each school book sale.  All the models being built. Lying on the bed looking at the planes hanging from the ceiling, wishing I could get in the cockpit.  All those years later, SWOTL, AOE, AOP, EAW, AW and now AH, letting me do what I thought I'd never get a chance to as a kid dreaming about it.

I knew we were in trouble back in AW when i had to explain that +Tiff didn't mean Tiffany, but was reference to the Hawker Typhoon's nickname :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #282 on: October 25, 2006, 06:03:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
so charon....  what you are saying is that if AW would have stayed alive that the guys who ruined it would have stayed there and not come here to ruin AH gameplay?

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's



AW wasn't ruined and if you have that belief it is a false one and one indicitive of a player that really didn't play AW all that much.  AW unfortunately suffered from lack of "care" from it's developers.  AW is a perfect example of what happens to a game that is left on "cruise control" by a developer that felt like since people were still paying to play that updates weren't all that much needed nor new things to attract a new player base.

Glad to see that HiTech and crew haven't fallen into the "Kesmoid" theory of game development.

And no offense...some of the biggest *******es in this game were already here long before the AW exodus.

ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #283 on: October 25, 2006, 06:04:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
I knew we were in trouble back in AW when i had to explain that +Tiff didn't mean Tiffany, but was reference to the Hawker Typhoon's nickname :)


D'OH!  I thought it was because you were a big Audry Hepburn fan and liked the movie.


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Offline Charon

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« Reply #284 on: October 25, 2006, 06:24:55 PM »
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AW wasn't ruined and if you have that belief it is a false one and one indicitive of a player that really didn't play AW all that much.


I would strongly disagree, and I played it a hell of a lot. I spent hundreds $$ on it on a really bad month for me, at least, even on Delphi and CRIS net with their “economical” 20/20 plans - averaging about $50 a month probably. I brought three RL friends into the game as well when it didn't suck. Hell, the only surviving memory I have of one of those friends is a mission stored on a zip drive from 1994. I made my own cockpits using Crack 21 in the periscope warrior days and added my own sound effects for a laugh (Butthead’s laugh for the gun sounds "hu huh hu huh huh", Bevis’s “Fire…Fire” for the hit damage sounds along with a Simpsons Doh!).

It was ruined for me, in the ways and for the reasons I stated, with the switch to Gamestorm and the change in format -- and then EA. I didn't leave after 7 years for the lack of eyecandy, or the notably crappy flight models (B-17, Yak, P-47 mainly) and physics engine issues in FR (which I played for 6.5 years exclusively). I left because the game play had really started to suck. You would log on, and see huge 1-country bar dars at vastly separate parts of the map milking undefended bases, with perhaps fighter town providing some limited relief.

It did not suck before the shift from the centrals neutrals model, even with the move to AOL which actually gave me the novelty of free gameplay vs. pay to play by hour (except I had to use AOL) :)

And yes, development was limited relative to Warbirds, etc. But that’s not why I came to AH. If anything I was way too loyal to the game for too many years, the last 1.5 of Gamestorm/EA spent mainly flying in scenarios.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 06:32:08 PM by Charon »