What was that maneauver?

[RedRadr]

I usually watch films in external view, with trails, icons and recorded views checked. Gives a good overview over the fight.

You can switch to another plane in the viewer by double clicking on the name




                                                 tks, Schatzi

[Schatzi]

Originally posted by TexMurphy

But omfg do we have a problem when our co players get suppriced, shocked and ask wtf when someone does a proper merge and immel vs their flat turn...
 

I do not think its a problem. Weve all been new. Weve all done the flat turn. Weve all been shocked and surprised. Weve all learned the immel eventually.

How can something be wrong when he comes here to ask about it?

[TexMurphy]

Originally posted by Schatzi
I do not think its a problem. Weve all been new. Weve all done the flat turn. Weve all been shocked and surprised. Weve all learned the immel eventually.

How can something be wrong when he comes here to ask about it?

Your right Schatzi its not wrong that he comes and asks, its great that he comes and asks.

Its just that Ive been a bit edgy lately. First of all with all the vets that are whining about the skill of others instead of helping them. Then the "semi or wanabe vets" with great stats that nothing but flat turn and ho. I have made it a habbit to ask if they want some tips and advice to their fighter flying each time I run into them, I ask over whisper and I try to ask as politely as I can. How many do you think answer?

Partially Im frustrated that Im not helping more pilots to evolve.

Tex

[humble]

Originally posted by TexMurphy
Your right Schatzi its not wrong that he comes and asks, its great that he comes and asks.

Its just that Ive been a bit edgy lately. First of all with all the vets that are whining about the skill of others instead of helping them. Then the "semi or wanabe vets" with great stats that nothing but flat turn and ho. I have made it a habbit to ask if they want some tips and advice to their fighter flying each time I run into them, I ask over whisper and I try to ask as politely as I can. How many do you think answer?

Partially Im frustrated that Im not helping more pilots to evolve.

Tex

The sad reality is the game itself has changed markedly in the sense that true one on one or "few on few" melee's are no longer the norm. So tactics have changed to reflect that. Basically ACM is much less important. I'd say the vast majority of the "new breed" have minimal competence in actual dogfighting....just the way it is....

[Bubbajj]

Well, I played this game a long time ago when it was called something else, can't remember, but I moved and never got back in. Since I've been back, Ive learned a thing or two so far. I've been flying the F4U-1D with some success. I've been learning how to use the combat flaps and if your at the right speed this thing comes around. I've been able to surprise a few spit pilots and can embarrass some of the bigger slower turning rides. However, I'm constantly being amazed at the way some guys dance thier planes around. I'm learning, slowly but surely, I can fight my way into the top 1000 usually when I have the time to fight and when I get serious. I have a habit of trying to defend hopelessly porked air strips though.

[TexMurphy]

Bubbajj

A few things that I find very important.

1. Always ask your self "where do I wana be". What is the most favorable possition I can get to from the possition Im currently in.

2. Always ask your self "how do I get to where Im going as fast as possible and as efficiently as possible". (Efficinetly meaning retaining as much E as possible).

Lets apply these two questions on the head on merge situation you described.

1. Where do I wana be? The most favorable position is high on your enemies six. From here you have a E advantage on your enemy and your guns towards the enemy while his point away from you. You have all the options from the high six position so you wana get there.

2. How do I get there as fast as possible? First of all you need to change your vector of heading by 180 degrees. How do you turn 180 degrees as fast as possible? The answer to that question is immelman (half loop with roll) its a much faster way to change your vector 180 degrees then a flat turn. Id roughly estimate it to 60% faster.

How do I get there as efficiently as possible? Well the flat turn is NEVER a efficient way to manouver as it ALWAYS slows you down and you dont gain any altitude while slowing down. Since altitude and speed are exchangable it is acceptable to loose speed for altitude but not acceptable to loose speed and not gain altitude.

The Immelman is the answer to this question again. You do climb in your reverse meaning that you convert speed into altitude and when you are reversed you have traded your speed for alt.

Also since you do want a high six possition you do want to have a vertical manouver.

Its very simple vs flat turning enemy but trickier vs a good opponent who also uses the vertical axis.

Another thing.

When you merge you always want to be UNDER THE NOSE OF YOUR ENEMY.

This is to gain a better position if he also goes vertical after the merge but it has a great side effect. If you make it a habbit of always flying under the nose of your enemy you will NEVER DIE TO A HO.

If you are under the nose of your enemy he will have to push stick forward, pull negative G´s (redout) inorder to get his guns on you. He cant aim while he is in a redout. If he pushes his stick forward or rolls over he will be totally out of possition and you will be able to get the high six on him extreamly easily.

By doing these under nose merge and immelman opening move your success in combat will increase very drastically.

Tex

[noTch]

Man, this is great stuff.  I'm gonna go kick some butt:aok

[BugsBunny]

Originally posted by Bubbajj
Bangin around in the LWMA and ran into a guy flying a Hurc. I think Ball ran into him too, I saw them exchange salutes. He would run toward ya almost a head on and then pull up as he passed by. It seemed  he was pulling up and over the top to come around for a really quick solution. What was he doing? He was coming around really quick and I couldn't keep up in my FM2. He was moving and had to be bleeding off E to make the quick turn around and yet have enough to roll over the top quickly. I would lose sight as he went by and couldn't see exactly what the move was. Any ideas? He smoked me 3 for 3.

Not sure, but it takes a lot of skill to pull the stick back in Horricane.  The way to beat them is to keep your E.  He will blead e to get around as fast as he can.  Assuming you knew he was going to try that (most horricanes and spits will try it), keep your speed and pull up gently.  If you were right, you will end up hovering over him with him either stalling or not having the e to try and get you.

[humble]

Originally posted by TexMurphy
Bubbajj

A few things that I find very important.

1. Always ask your self "where do I wana be". What is the most favorable possition I can get to from the possition Im currently in.

2. Always ask your self "how do I get to where Im going as fast as possible and as efficiently as possible". (Efficinetly meaning retaining as much E as possible).

Lets apply these two questions on the head on merge situation you described.

1. Where do I wana be? The most favorable position is high on your enemies six. From here you have a E advantage on your enemy and your guns towards the enemy while his point away from you. You have all the options from the high six position so you wana get there.

2. How do I get there as fast as possible? First of all you need to change your vector of heading by 180 degrees. How do you turn 180 degrees as fast as possible? The answer to that question is immelman (half loop with roll) its a much faster way to change your vector 180 degrees then a flat turn. Id roughly estimate it to 60% faster.

How do I get there as efficiently as possible? Well the flat turn is NEVER a efficient way to manouver as it ALWAYS slows you down and you dont gain any altitude while slowing down. Since altitude and speed are exchangable it is acceptable to loose speed for altitude but not acceptable to loose speed and not gain altitude.

The Immelman is the answer to this question again. You do climb in your reverse meaning that you convert speed into altitude and when you are reversed you have traded your speed for alt.

Also since you do want a high six possition you do want to have a vertical manouver.

Its very simple vs flat turning enemy but trickier vs a good opponent who also uses the vertical axis.

Another thing.

When you merge you always want to be UNDER THE NOSE OF YOUR ENEMY.

This is to gain a better position if he also goes vertical after the merge but it has a great side effect. If you make it a habbit of always flying under the nose of your enemy you will NEVER DIE TO A HO.

If you are under the nose of your enemy he will have to push stick forward, pull negative G´s (redout) inorder to get his guns on you. He cant aim while he is in a redout. If he pushes his stick forward or rolls over he will be totally out of possition and you will be able to get the high six on him extreamly easily.

By doing these under nose merge and immelman opening move your success in combat will increase very drastically.

Tex

I think alot of that is both incorrect and oversimplified (no disrespect intended).

By it's very nature aircombat is fundementally a contest of dissimiliar planes and tactical states. Yes you have the occasional spit on spit (or other bird) co-alt/E encounter but most of the time your either in a postion of advantage or disadvantage. Assuming you bounce a guy and kill him in the current MA often you then find yourself in a 1 on 2 (or worse) against higher bogies.

So the 1st thing to realize is that if a con gets close enough to kill you...he's close enough for you to kill him. You simply need to get him from 600 behind you to two hundered in front. Correct tactics are based on relative energy states, angular positioning and plane capabilities. As a counter to your example above...which is fundementally correct. What if I simply concede the 1st merge and give the under and extend in a gentle zoom...now the con is climbing up into me and I can see his E state....assume he's positive E and I reverse into him looking for the under on the remerge (basically this is what happened in the 109f vs 38G clip). Twinboom beat me on the merge so I simply refused it.

If you look at the best killers in the game (greebo, blekitty, levi etc) you rarely see them with either alt or E...normally they're at 10k or less tooling along waiting for you to poke the porcupine. They understand the fundemental reality that one you decide to try and kill them....you give them a chance to kill you. 95% of the time they end up flying away:huh .

Best way to learn this game is still in a mid tier bird (F6F,109F4,C205,F4U-D) flying at 10k or less....you'll die a bit but you'll learn fast (obviously you need a trainer or experienced mentor to help ideally). In 90 days you'll be able to handle 75% of the sticks in the game 1 on 1....

[Bubbajj]

Thanks guys (and gals) for the help!! I've been applying some of this stuff and it's really helped.  I smoked a N1K1 and a spit the other day pulling off the Imel', I wish I could have seen the look on their face when my fat ol' F4U came around and gave em a dose of .50 cal lovin. I've been attempting to fight more in the vertical, as has been suggested, and if nothing else, I've been dying less and killing more.  I landed 4 kills in a row last night before I got zapped and none of them were runway porks. I'm still getting creamed by the guys that come in 3k above and drop down on me. It seems they call the moves from where they are. Is there a way that people are setting up their sticks? I've seen in the calibration section where there are dead zones and percentages of settings. Is this something I should be setting myself? Ive seen that many pilots seem to be deadly shots and look rock solid where I have to jiggle the stick around to get a good line up (and subsequently use a lot of ammo) because it's bouncing around so much. A 190 seems to be really bad about this, not a very stable platform. All in all I'm improving a bit at a time. I still bounce around and fly different planes just for fun and, like I said before, I try do defend seriously capped air fields. I've only been at it a few months but I do feel myself improving. Now If I could just learn not to jump into a losing situation..........By the way, I fly as Einhorn, I just use Bubbajj on everything so I don't forget my usernames.  Most, if not all of you have probably shot me down once or twice. I'm in Arizona so I guess that puts me in mountain/pacific time zone. If ya see me getting my arse handed to me, give me a shout.

[TexMurphy]

humble

Intentionally oversimplified and as with anything oversimplified far from 100% correct.

Reason I oversimplify is because when teaching someone you cant dish out the entire full depth of dogfighting right away. If you do you create information overflow and the person in question wount learn anything. Have to take it step by step.

Tex

[humble]

Originally posted by TexMurphy
humble

Intentionally oversimplified and as with anything oversimplified far from 100% correct.

Reason I oversimplify is because when teaching someone you cant dish out the entire full depth of dogfighting right away. If you do you create information overflow and the person in question wount learn anything. Have to take it step by step.

Tex

vv