P38J and P38G vs Spitfire mkV

[Mace2004]

Widewing, are those  numbers with stall limiter on/off?  Manual or CT trim?  Same questions for Batfink plus, do you see much difference in vertical reversals with various limiter/trim settings?

Just a BTW, has anyone demonstrated actual performance deltas with these settings?  I know many claim better performance, particularly with stall limiter off but I don't recall seeing any hard data that validated the concept.  I'm wondering if it's more a "sense" of improvement vice a quantifiable difference.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Mace2004
Widewing, are those  numbers with stall limiter on/off?  Manual or CT trim?  Same questions for Batfink plus, do you see much difference in vertical reversals with various limiter/trim settings?

Just a BTW, has anyone demonstrated actual performance deltas with these settings?  I know many claim better performance, particularly with stall limiter off but I don't recall seeing any hard data that validated the concept.  I'm wondering if it's more a "sense" of improvement vice a quantifiable difference.

Stall limiter is off, manual trim. However, for most aircraft there is no measurable difference with or without combat trim engaged.

I have film of the F4U-1A being flown in a constant left turn with stall limiter off while being followed by another F4U-1A flown with stall limiter on. The Corsair with it off consistently turns a smaller circle. Not much, but smaller nonetheless. I'll see if I can find the film among the hundreds stored on my external hard drive.

My regards,

Widewing

[Nomak]

WW.....

I would be interested in trying out the seafire vs mk V thing.  I think it would also be fun to do some of the 38G/J vs mk V ala the original post.

Not claiming to know here but......

My feeling is that if the 38's were flown in a vertical, nose up style and flown to gain and maintain energy advantage over the spit they will win every time.  However if the spit can get it to a turn/angles contest the 38's will be history.  Your thoughts here?

I think the new TA has a "Dueling" type area?  I would of course (u know me) prefer that.

I think it could be fun and maybe we can learn a thing or 2.

If you are game just say the word.  I am off work until Thursday so the next day or 2 would work well for me.

Dave

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Mace2004
Just a BTW, has anyone demonstrated actual performance deltas with these settings?  I know many claim better performance, particularly with stall limiter off but I don't recall seeing any hard data that validated the concept.  I'm wondering if it's more a "sense" of improvement vice a quantifiable difference.

Ok, I found the film...buried in the middle of a 90 minute film run. I pulled it out and edited it to just 3 minutes.

I'm home today fighting off some sort of flu bug... So in between naps, I searched for it.

When you run the film, there's three things you need to do in order to see the turning circle comparison well.

First, view from the Fixed view. Second, pull the vertical slider all the way to down to the bottom to see the planes from directly above. Finally, turn on Trails to see the actual circles.

I'm flying the plane without an icon. Sloehand is flying the second F4U-1A. He uses stall limiter all the time and thought he was getting full turn performance. This film shows the real difference, but I am somewhat skilled at flying continuous circles at the absolute minimum turn radius (ask Batfink) as I do this a lot testing all the aircraft. So, that probably makes the difference a bit larger.

Here's the film.

My regards,

Widewing

[Yukon]

Mak I'll do some of that on Tuesday night if you can make it.

Just give pick a time from 5pmCST-10.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Nomak
WW.....

I would be interested in trying out the seafire vs mk V thing.  I think it would also be fun to do some of the 38G/J vs mk V ala the original post.

Not claiming to know here but......

My feeling is that if the 38's were flown in a vertical, nose up style and flown to gain and maintain energy advantage over the spit they will win every time.  However if the spit can get it to a turn/angles contest the 38's will be history.  Your thoughts here?

I think the new TA has a "Dueling" type area?  I would of course (u know me) prefer that.

I think it could be fun and maybe we can learn a thing or 2.

If you are game just say the word.  I am off work until Thursday so the next day or 2 would work well for me.

Dave

Hiya Dave,

I'd be happy to do some head to head tests and some duels (although I don't fly Spitfires much). I'm home with the flu and feeling like the inside of a dog's butthole. However, If I'm feeling better later, I'll drop by the TA. I'm in there most evenings after 9 PM, so if we don't get together today, any evening will do. I have a couple of noobs to train tomorrow evening, but there will be time to play.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

I tested the F4U-1A for minimum turn radius the same day it was released.

Minimum turn radius was 422.7 feet.

With stall limiter on, minimum turn radius increases to 457.2 feet.

It's worse for the Spitfire Mk.V, which goes from 389.2 feet up to a whopping 492.1 feet!

I'd advise anyone who is flying with stall limiter on, to turn it off.

My regards,

Widewing

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by Nomak
WW.....


My feeling is that if the 38's were flown in a vertical, nose up style and flown to gain and maintain energy advantage over the spit they will win every time.  However if the spit can get it to a turn/angles contest the 38's will be history.  Your thoughts here?


Dave

true, but the films i posted clearyly show the 38 winning in a turn fight.  both films the spitty had alt, E and possition to start with. granted they could have flown better, but in the MA it is good to know what 'could be possible' in any given fight rather than what 'will' happen due to performance charts.

90% of the MA would not have flown those spit5s any better, and that, if i may be so bold, is the part where people looking to get better will be judging thier improvements on and striving to achieve, not by a DA fight with the best of the best spit5 pilots.

i know you spit5 vs me p38  and knife fighting is only going to lead to my being shot down 100%

Originally posted by Widewing
, but I am somewhat skilled at flying continuous circles at the absolute minimum turn radius (ask Batfink)  [/QUOTE

very true, we went round and round in TA one time through all sorts of acms and just about broke even. finally we got on the deck and flat turning and i couldnt hold it with widewing at all, after about 5 revolutions i was struggling for possition.

[Nomak]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
true, but the films i posted clearyly show the 38 winning in a turn fight.  both films the spitty had alt, E and possition to start with.  

Here is where I am going to make my point Batty.....

The reason you turned inside of the spit is because he was going to fast.  He should have either.....

1) Used his E adv to pull up and BnZ you.  

2) Cut his speed quickly to engauge you in the knife fight.

He did neither and he lost.

As you well know (although I think you are overlooking here) the faster the aircraft airspeed the wider the turn circle.  I see it all the time with pilots in AH.  They think to themselves..... "Im in a spit, hes in a 38 I can win the turn fight"  and most of the time they are correct.  However if the correct conditions exist..... as shown in your film..... the spit will get "outturned"

IMHO if the air speeds were even and the pilots even the 38 would lose.

Just saying my piece here.  Not trying to be argumentative.  Take it FWIW.

Dave

[Nomak]

Originally posted by Yukon
Mak I'll do some of that on Tuesday night if you can make it.

Just give pick a time from 5pmCST-10.

Sounds good bro.

8 pm?

Dave

[Roscoroo]

the spit 5 can fall into the p-38's traps easily when the 38 pilot knows whats what with his plane.   its really easy to misjudge the 38's E due to its size and find yourself underneath getting roped .  

most of the time its a skill vs skill in this matchup ... if either one makes a mistake though .... there ussually towered.

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by Nomak
Here is where I am going to make my point Batty.....

The reason you turned inside of the spit is because he was going to fast.  He should have either.....

1) Used his E adv to pull up and BnZ you.  

2) Cut his speed quickly to engauge you in the knife fight.

He did neither and he lost.

As you well know (although I think you are overlooking here) the faster the aircraft airspeed the wider the turn circle.  I see it all the time with pilots in AH.  They think to themselves..... "Im in a spit, hes in a 38 I can win the turn fight"  and most of the time they are correct.  However if the correct conditions exist..... as shown in your film..... the spit will get "outturned"

IMHO if the air speeds were even and the pilots even the 38 would lose.

Just saying my piece here.  Not trying to be argumentative.  Take it FWIW.

Dave

I definitely cant argue with the fact that spit5 is a bettre turnfighter than the p38 by a mile.


but i fear you fail to see my point sir, with all due respect.


my point is that this is what will happen in 90% of MA fights, and my post is to help teach how to win an MA fight against your average spitfire pilot, not someone as good as you.

many times a better pilot will lose to a spitfire simply because the spitfire is such a good aircraft, i just want to show the 'next level up' from simply fighting two planes on thier stats, you see where im getting at?


if nomak in a spit5 fought nomak in a P38, the spit would own every fight.


if 'newplayer1' in a spit5 fights 'newplayer2' in a p38 and newplayer2 employs these tactics, NP2 stands more chance of winning than if they both flat turn to decide the fight.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Mace2004
Manual or CT trim?  Same questions for Batfink plus, do you see much difference in vertical reversals with various limiter/trim settings?

This was answered, but I did want to add one thing.  Trim will not make a difference in turn performance in AH except at extreme speeds where either compression, or the physical force required to move the control surfaces is beyond the strength of the 'virtual pilot'.  

However, because of how trim is modeled in AH, near stall speeds it can affect your range of controller input.  As an example, trim 38 elevators to the bottom of the 'L', and perform a vertical reversal with flaps down to stall speed, roll 180 and level out as quickly as possible.  While you try to level you may find that you have 50%-60% throw on your joystick before it wants to depart on you.

Repeat the same with combat trim on.  You'll find that 15%-25% throw on your joystick will be as much as you get without departing.  Either way you will be able to perform the maneuvers within the same radi and altitude range.  Main difference is that if there is shooting involved while doing this you have more manual athority with the back end of your stick, rather than being forced to line up a shot while pushing forward.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV

if nomak in a spit5 fought nomak in a P38, the spit would own every fight.

Id give 38 nomak even odds on being able to build E and set up a rope.

[B@tfinkV]

well assuming they started co-E in head on merge, i'd say not a chance in heaven. unless he had a really bad aim day and roped himself early on.

P38 is a big target.