vertical turns

[humble]

Originally posted by Mace2004
With all due respect BE and IMHO that really isn't totally accurate.  In a very very broad and non-specific manner you could describe any up and down maneuvers like these as a "yoyo" but then things become rather vague.  The principal purpose of a high yoyo is to stay within your target's turn radius and behind his 3-9 line while maintaining your e.  It also is useful for increasing separation if you're too close and as a low-e vertical reversal where it's essentially just a wingover.  What you're describing as a "high yoyo" is just turning out of plane with your target and moving from a horizontal to a more vertical fight.  You're right that by turning out of plane by going nose high gives you the tighter effective radius and advantages of G working for you when you come back down but it only works if you've got the e to do it.  If you're co-e it's also very easily countered by your adversary if he 1) reverses, unloads and extends away while you bleed your speed or 2) he simply comes up after you.  A guy does this to me and I'll just watch him start up, overbank and accelerate under him for just a couple of seconds then lag him up.  He will either start down before I do putting me in a perfect spot to do a rudder reversal and hammer him or I've got him treed and he's got no place to go.

I'll add a couple of things to what Mace said, which is probably restating a bit of what he said. The hi/low yoyo is really all about energy management. As a general rule its a response to changes in angular advantage and/or E state. If your on the offensive and the con is slower the hi yoyo is used to bleed E and maintain proper positioning....if your below optimal cornering speed the low yoyo helps you "power up" and eat those angles up.

On defense the low yoyo can be either an attemt to initiate an overshoot or rolling scissors or simply to speed back up to corner speed again....hi yoyo normally is used to slow down to corner speed while banking what E you can. The hi yoyo on offense is a lag pursuit transition and the low yoyo is a lead pursuit transition. Often you'll see me "pop up" the hog (often off the gas) and then power thru a low yoyo with wep and full flaps to catch a spit 8 or 16 ...the hog going from 70mph semi stalled down thru a Power dive to 140 or so eats angles up amazingly fast....especailly if the con is flying a more or less flat circle.....

In fact to me the "offensive" hi yoyo (often as close to a true immelman as limited energy state allows) is my ace in the hole vs a spit or ki in an on the deck stall fight. I'll often "go vertical" at 115 mph or less and let the hog "fall out " of the hi yoyo at 50-60 mph as soon as i've lost the advantage....more often then not the con is pulling hard to eat the angles up and desnt really see me in his "over the shoulder" view....he just knows i'm wallowing and is looking for my tail in his "up" view" as he pulls....to then see hog "floating" 400 ft over him at 50mph or less....angles fighting is all about out of plane manuevering....if your flying "flat" for more then a 1/2 circle your probably (but not always) doing something wrong...

[Murdr]

Great discussion.  Like I said though, Im posting in installments (time constraints & such), so I'll continue with some explanations, and then join in on discussion and questions.

Originally posted by Mace2004
 A pitchback is a high-e turn (as Murdr describes it's just part of a loop) and a wingover is either a low e maneuver or high-e used specifically for position advantage.  For most prop-driven planes a pure pitch-back usually degrades to something similar to a wingover because they have insufficient power to sustain corner velocity in the vertical for long so have to lower their nose.

That is an excelent preface including the point that our AH prop driven planes make it difficult to employ this type of turn in the way you would in a modern fighter.  

In the context of AH you will often likely see a pitchback after a low speed merge.  A comment I often see in post duel discussions is that "I didnt have the speed to do another immelman".  Many players faced with that feel they only have the choice of 'going under' or turning in the horizontal at that point.  Here is another option.  Start your turn in the vertical, and then transition that turn into the horizontal.  What you are doing is capping the amount of speed you will lose during the reversal while still gaining some of the positional advantages of turning in the vertical.  "Well couldn't you do the same thing with a chandelle?" one might ask.  In this low E situation, I'd say no, not nearly as effectively.

If you exit a low speed merge and start your turn intending to pitchback, guess what?  All your opponent sees is that you are enterning an immelman.  Your opponent now has a difficult choice to make if they feel they cant match an immelman. In fact though, you're only bluffing an immelman.

Getting back to the concept of using this to cap your speed loss while still gaining altitude...Let's set a scenerio:  You and your opponent merge after a 2nd immelman.  You are both slow, but can at least stall 'over the top'.  Your opponent does that.  You start your turn into the vertical, but break out of that turn with enough reserve to finish comming 180 without stalling.  Now your opponent, while at a higher altitude, is inverted nose down in a stall.  You are probably already just above where your opponent can recover level flight.  Only question at this point is will the separation allow your opponent to recover level flight, and pull nose up to you before the merge?  If the answer is no, the fight is yours to lose.

So in post merge turns a pitchback:
Can beat a stalled over immelman.
Will lose to a clean immelman.
Will counter a split-s* (via positioning, see this film study thread
Can be countered by a nose low flat turn. (via rate of turn)
Can gain angle on a neutrual or nose high flat turn.

*this is where you may see it in a higher E situation.

end of installment

[Murdr]

Chandelle as mentioned earlier is a maxium performance climbing 180 degree turn.  Again, it is not an off angle immelman, or a bank and pull back on the stick.  Through the course of the turn, you are adjusting the to maintain your bank angle.  It is most effective during high E maneuvering.

It is on par with an immelman for turn around time, but does not match the immelman in energy efficency.  Referring back to the previous previous ACM film study you could substitute a chandelle for an immelman, and expect similar results.

Where you are most likely to see this is as an opening post merge turn.  Not only can it match an immelman in turn around time creating an effective tie, but it naturally creates a positional advantage for a second merge.  A chandelle can take place with less altitude gain than an immelman.  So in that turn match up, it will be "under" the subsequent merge.  (If you don't undersand the significance of being "under the merge" click here

While it does make for an awkward 2nd merge for an opponent who does an immelman, it is not without its drawbacks.  It loses more E during the reversal than an immelman.  If the opponent can manage the next reversal without getting shot, they should have the upperhand with an energy advantage from that point on.

have to go again, end of installment.

[porkfrog]

i for one am really enjoying AND learning a great deal from your write up. looking forward to the next one.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by porkfrog
Here's a question...

If I'm closing on an nme from above or coalt with myself having the E advantage, and the nme makes an in plane or nose low break turn, and instead of trying to make the turn and lose my e, I go nose high climb briefly, and then roll back towards the now zoom extending nme, have I executed a High YoYo or a Pitchback?

You're exactly describing a high yoyo.  Your target is making a break turn into you which puts you inside of his turn circle.  He wants you to overshoot so he can reverse his turn and get behind your wingline.  By leveling your wings a bit and climbing you're converting knots to altitude and minimizing your travel across the ground, this is keeping you inside (or just over) his turn circle and behind his 3-9 line so you're denying him the opportunity to reverse on you and exchange his defensive position for an offensive one.  

How and when you come over the top depends on geometry and a sense of timing.  You want perfect separation, minimum angles and, most of all you want to keep the pressure on the target.  The high yoyo is a great example of Patton's saying that you're going to hold him by the nose and kick his butt.  

If you have a lot of excess e your yoyo can be fairly high which increases your separation but don't let the separation build to the point that you give him breathing room.  Always remember you want to keep the pressure on him and him reacting to what you're doing.  Reverse and use that stored e to close on him with more favorable angles.  Also, remember that the longer and higher you zoom the more angles your target can make OR as in the case you're describing where he runs the greater the separation he'll achieve and the more opportunity he'll have to either escape or do his own reversal to neutralize your position advantage.  

Your goal is to time your reversal such that you roll out in his control zone with good closure but minimum angles.  Watch your target as you climb, if he immediately unloads and extends then you need to immediately react and pull right back on to him.  If you've gained too much separation but your target is still turning then reverse and go from a high yoyo to a low yoyo cut across the circle and close the distance back up.  It's not at all unusual to have a series of alternating high and low yoyos in a fight, especially if your target is very fast or a very capable turner.  If your separation is small and/or you have lots of angle off  then extending in the vertical for a nice easy pull down or even a lag roll (a roll to the outside of your target's turn) are options.

The high yoyo is considered one of the most basic of all fighter maneuvers but it's one that will be used more often than just about any other and gives you many combinations and options.  Murdr and Humble both give good descriptions of variations and options.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Mace2004
You're exactly describing a high yoyo.  Your target is making a break turn into you which puts you inside of his turn circle.  He wants you to overshoot so he can reverse his turn and get behind your wingline.  By leveling your wings a bit and climbing you're converting knots to altitude and minimizing your travel across the ground, this is keeping you inside (or just over) his turn circle and behind his 3-9 line so you're denying him the opportunity to reverse on you and exchange his defensive position for an offensive one.  

How and when you come over the top depends on geometry and a sense of timing.  You want perfect separation, minimum angles and, most of all you want to keep the pressure on the target.  The high yoyo is a great example of Patton's saying that you're going to hold him by the nose and kick his butt.  
 

An excellent description of the YoYo and its use and purpose. I find a short illustration goes a long way to understanding the written explanation

Porkfrog, here is a 39 second film that shows pretty much what Mace is saying. I'm hard on a Spit16 with a 109K-4. He's turning left and right trying to get me to overshoot. When I see that an overshoot is likely, I go up, roll inverted, pick him up again and roll back in behind. I used vertical displacement to remain behind his wingline and I am in proper position  to take my shot. Which ever way he turned, I was in a position to drop in behind again.

Here's the short film.

My regards,

Widewing

[porkfrog]

thanks guys. now i see why you have the "skillz to get killz" =)

[humble]

I happened to film this last night after the "training" clip above. It's a short 1 on 1 (P40E vs 109F). I'm fairly rusty in the P-40 and I stall the bird out mid fight. Given my tendency to scrub E rather aggresively this creates not only angular problems but puts me further behind the eightball in that regard as well.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the value of the "vertical turn" as an "offensive move" when your in a defensive position in a stall fight. Here I'm basically hung out to dry in a neg E/neg angles state. By "going vertical" from this "inferior" position I regain control of the fight....

Ignoring the P-51 proved to be fatal but I felt it was the lesser of two evils...If I evade him bucky's already saddled up vertically if I dont stay roughly where I am. I figured I'd lose a gun or control surface at worst:)....not the whole wing:eek: ....

Very few pilots I run into outside of the "aces of the game" use the verticals correctly in either offense or defense. Even in an all out "T&B" there is very little actual flat turning. You'll notice that even "falling out of the sky at 60 mph" and fighting the torque I still am able to effectively improve my relative position and E state vs the 109.

http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/picked.ahf

[Murdr]

An Immelman, a chandelle, and a pitchback have some commonalities.  Each maneuver will gain over 100% of the distance of your turn radius in altitude from start to finish.  All changes in your pitch axis during the maneuvers contribute toward your heading reversal (this is also true with flat turns and split-s).  So they are all about making a 180 degree turn in a time and distance efficent manner.

The High Yo-Yo differs on these points.  I gave the extreme example of a near 90 degree high yo-yo from hanger to hanger in the film to hilight the difference.  In that film I make a 90 degree turn to exit the horizontal plane, a 180 degree heading reversal, and a 90 degree turn to re-enter the horizontal.  That adds up to 360 degrees in pitch change, that is neither time effecient nor a short path.  What it does accomplish is an exit to a desired position that would be impossible with an in plane turn.

This is often the same thing that you want to accomplish while in pursuit of a slower bogie.  If you have low separation with the bogie and they break turn in front of you, any attempt at pure pursuit will likely result with you well outside of their turn, with enough room for them to turn into you.  The combination of those to factors creates an overshoot.  Instead, you use a high yo-yo to re-enter the bogies turning plane to a position where it is still possible to re-aquire his extended 6.  Not only does it allow you a chance to get to your opponents extended 6 where you otherwise could not, but it also creates separation.  So you are using that 'longer route' to manage your separation.  All the while you are efficently transfering energy states to gain the performance you are looking for.

I should add that typically, a high yo-yo will be more in the range of 30-60 degrees out of plane, and how hard of a yo-yo you will want will depend both on the position you are trying to exit at, and the separation you can afford to allow.  And I think I will leave it at that because of how well the high yo-yo has been covered in this discussion

As you can see the high yo-yo has a much different set of objectives than the other turns discussed.  This is also a reason I have wanted to stack these maneuvers together in the same discussion.  They all have similarities in the way they look, but they do have different properties, and differ slightly in what they are trying to achieve.  Hopefully this will cut down any confusion on what is or isn't a high yo-yo, and give you a few lessor discussed maneuvers to work with.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Damionte
It took me 13 tries to make one of those double hanger yo-yoes. I really don't know why I didn't quit after a dozen or so! After making that 1 I crashed another 8 times before I made it again. That's hard! At least I can do it now though.

Here's an interesting note about practicing. Until Murdr put up this film yesterday I never did my YoYoes like that. After putting in the time in the training room, my hands just remembered the maneuver. Later that evening when I got into combat I just did it. I didn't think about it. I just did it.

Oh, you would love the full warm up routine then, LOL.  I start by flying through the north small pad fighter hanger, and make two slight turns while crossing the field to set up the enterence (the hardest part imo) to the south big pad bomber hanger.  Then I do the yo-yo like in the film.  On exit of the north BH, I do another extreme yo-yo into the south bigpad FH.  On exit of that I zoom into a hammer head and come back down through the north bigpad FH (right next to the previous hanger).

It's just a little excercise I do when the mood strikes me.

That's why I could do that film at the drop of a hat in one take.

[gusman]

Greetings

I've been trying all these manuevers and I've been blacking out. (Should I get a G Suit?) I've taken off the stall limiter and used the damping in the controller setup. I guess I have to work on my scaling. Does anyone have a nice setup for the Logitech Wingman Extreme? I got it when it first came out (Xmas Present)and do not seem to have the problems some people do .

Cheers,
gusman44

[Bronk]

Originally posted by gusman
Greetings

I've been trying all these manuevers and I've been blacking out. (Should I get a G Suit?) I've taken off the stall limiter and used the damping in the controller setup. I guess I have to work on my scaling. Does anyone have a nice setup for the Logitech Wingman Extreme? I got it when it first came out (Xmas Present)and do not seem to have the problems some people do .

Cheers,
gusman44

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

logitech *shiver*

Not to sound harsh but I believe that brand has a hard time staying calibrated.

As for the blackouts just need to lighten up on the stick.
When i first jumped into the game blackouts were common.
I figured out it had more to do with my ham fisted stick use than anything else.


Bronk

[gusman]

Originally posted by Bronk
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

logitech *shiver*

Not to sound harsh but I believe that brand has a hard time staying calibrated.

As for the blackouts just need to lighten up on the stick.
When i first jumped into the game blackouts were common.
I figured out it had more to do with my ham fisted stick use than anything else.


Bronk

I guess I got one before they had their quality control problems. No problem with the calibration yet and I've been play AH2 since September.

[Schatzi]

Originally posted by gusman
Greetings

I've been trying all these manuevers and I've been blacking out. (Should I get a G Suit?) I've taken off the stall limiter and used the damping in the controller setup. I guess I have to work on my scaling. Does anyone have a nice setup for the Logitech Wingman Extreme? I got it when it first came out (Xmas Present)and do not seem to have the problems some people do .

Cheers,
gusman44

Blacking out is caused by pulling too high Gs. The higher the speed and the smaller the turn radius, the higher the Gs you pull.

To avoid blackout, you can do two things: Slow down or make the turn wider (ie the maneuver bigger). I dont remember off the top of my head, but i think Murdr flew the maneuvers (especially the Yoyo) at not very high speeds (might want to recheck film on that).


When youre blacking out a lot in fights, check your turns.... are you flat turning (ie parallel to horizon) a lot? If so, try to make your turns more vertical (see immel, chandelle, pitchback and company). This will reduce your speed as you climb and hence reduce your pulled Gs (a few other effects help as well).


Stick scaling will only help if you have a "heavy hand" on the stick.... just watch that your controls wont get too sluggish. Riding the edge of blackout (ir tunnel vision) is something to learn just as riding the edge of stall.

[gusman]

Originally posted by Schatzi
).

Stick scaling will only help if you have a "heavy hand" on the stick.... just watch that your controls wont get too sluggish. Riding the edge of blackout (ir tunnel vision) is something to learn just as riding the edge of stall.

I'm afraid I'm a little heavy handed. I can put myself in a spin just by turning:o. But it sounds like I do not have to do a lot of tweaking of my controls.

gusman44