Author Topic: Rudder questions  (Read 407 times)

Offline WilldCrd

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Rudder questions
« on: December 10, 2006, 03:54:01 PM »
First off im no pilot BUT, other than staying at a holiday inn express last night :D  I also play alot of FS 04
ok so here is my questions. When turning your plane in AH it seems that the "ball" automatically centers without rudder imputs. currently i have a saitek x45 with the rudder paddles on the throttle
Now, i bought a set of ch pedels from right foot and they should be here my monday.

Anywho is there some setting im not aware of that default links the stick and rudder control so that when turning the "ball" centers? because in several other games like FS 04 you have to center the rudder yourself when turning.

i can move the rudder when i need to im just wondering if i would have more control if it was fully manual. Lately i have been having issues with some side to side jerkyness especially when shooting while turning and im not inputting any rudder commands.


hope any of the above is understandable.
Crap now I gotta redo my cool sig.....crap!!! I cant remeber how to do it all !!!!!

Offline Schatzi

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Rudder questions
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2006, 05:25:35 AM »
WilldCrd, what you are talking about is adverse yaw, and to my experience it is modelled in Aces High. That means your plane gets into a slight skid on turning and you have to "step on the ball" to correct that. Rudder is full manual, it does not autocoordinate your turns. I do not know how much (or little) it is modelled in FS04, since i have never flown it, but maybe the amount of adverse yaw in fighters (compared to civ planes) is just lower? Maybe Badboy could shed some light on that.


As for your jerkiness problem: Make sure your pedal rudder axis is calibrated correctly. Then you might want to scale the rudder input a little bit (select the axis and check the "Advanced box").

If you feel rudder comes on too immediate, try adding a little dead band to increase the "no reaction" center zone.  A setting I myself have always found useful for rudder sliders was a staircase up on the first 3 and a staircase down on the last three.




If you want to add some slight toning down to the whole rudder, ad a little bit of damping. It implements a time delay between input and actual reaction in game. Just watch that it doesnt get too sluggish.


If you have any more issues with it, let me know. Im running the same setup btw... x45 and CH peds :).
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Offline Mace2004

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Rudder questions
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2006, 09:10:50 AM »
Willdcard, you'll see a big difference with rudder pedals over the X-45 rocker.  AH does pretty much fly coordinated (probably because many people only have sticks and no rudder control except the keyboard) so you don't have to worry about keeping the ball in the center but you'll use rudders a lot more for other things, mostly involving getting the ball out of the center.  It should be easier to use slight rudder inputs to dampen out yaw excursions associated with maneuvers plus you'll develop a habit pattern of using the rudder during turns, not specifically to fly a coordinated turn but to increase your roll rates.  If you fly with stall limiter off you can easily do snap rolls, it's not as easy with the limiter on but you can still do it.  You can also improve your gunnery accuracy, do rudder reversals, slips for landing and counter torque effects at low speed.  

Try out Shatzi's settings with the pedals, they're similar to mine but one thing I found with Saitek pedals is the "gain" is much lower than either the rocker or twist grip, I assume the CH pedals will be similar.  In other words, you have greater range of motion and it takes more movement of the pedals to get a certain amount of response from the rudder which tends to smooth things out and makes it much easier to make small, precise adjustments.
Mace
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Offline Rocket

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Rudder questions
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2006, 10:28:53 AM »
I may be off abit here it has been awhile but follow this  :)

Rudder size and vertical stabilizer size has a huge factor in the planes ability to stay in coordinated during turning along with speed.  If you look back at WWI the planes had smaller surfaces and flew at slower speeds.  When banking for a turn alot of rudder input was needed to keep the plane from skidding threw the turn.  As we made advances in aircraft things change abit.  If you notice when you are going slow in a turn you will tend to sideslip and need rudder to stay coordinated.  As you speed increases your large stabilizer behind you helps keep the plane from sideslipping as much.  Todays jets need very little rudder input in corners to keep the ball centered if any at all.  With modern civilian aircraft the vert. stab isn't near as large and they don't fly nearly as fast as our fighters do here from WWII.  They take a bit of rudder to keep things neat in the corners.  

One other thing to think about is combat trim.  I don' t know how fast it reacts but in a gentle turn it MAY have some input also.  Someone else that knows combat trim better than I could help out with that.


But that is my understanding of yaw during a turn. :D

Hope it helps and doesn't lead anyone astray :)

S!
Rocket

Offline WilldCrd

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Rudder questions
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2006, 03:17:27 PM »
thanks for the respnses everybody! shatzi that pic of your scale modelling is EXACTLY what i was looking fer!!:D
I just got the word that the ch pedels i got from rightfoot have arrived!! im sooo excited!!




oMg11 just reliezed ......I R DA GEEK!!:O
Crap now I gotta redo my cool sig.....crap!!! I cant remeber how to do it all !!!!!

Offline Krusty

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Rudder questions
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2006, 04:43:36 PM »
As one who's newly learning to fly with pedals: You don't have to give input until you bank past a certain level. That's when the ball REALLY starts sliding away. Some planes require it more than others (p51s don't need it so much, 109s do!). It will really come in handy for 90 degree banks and low-speed climbing manuvers.

Aiming... that's where it gets tricky (at least, re-learning when to use rudder to aim)

EDIT: Oh, and I'm digging hands-free takeoffs now. I can't imagine getting along without them!

Offline Mace2004

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Rudder questions
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2006, 04:48:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rocket
I may be off abit here it has been awhile but follow this  :)

Rudder size and vertical stabilizer size has a huge factor in the planes ability to stay in coordinated during turning along with speed.  If you look back at WWI the planes had smaller surfaces and flew at slower speeds.  When banking for a turn alot of rudder input was needed to keep the plane from skidding threw the turn.  As we made advances in aircraft things change abit.  If you notice when you are going slow in a turn you will tend to sideslip and need rudder to stay coordinated.  As you speed increases your large stabilizer behind you helps keep the plane from sideslipping as much.  Todays jets need very little rudder input in corners to keep the ball centered if any at all.  With modern civilian aircraft the vert. stab isn't near as large and they don't fly nearly as fast as our fighters do here from WWII.  They take a bit of rudder to keep things neat in the corners.  

One other thing to think about is combat trim.  I don' t know how fast it reacts but in a gentle turn it MAY have some input also.  Someone else that knows combat trim better than I could help out with that.


But that is my understanding of yaw during a turn. :D

Hope it helps and doesn't lead anyone astray :)

S!
Rocket


Well, you're mostly right and just a little bit wrong.  Props have torque and P-factor which influence the way the plane turns and the plane will tend to slip to one side and skid to the other.  Jet's (including airliners) don't have that (at least to the degree props do) but things are more complicated overall than just torque and p-factor.  You still have issues such as adverse yaw, proverse roll and engine failures on multiple engine aircraft to contend with.  These are simply part of the aerodynamics of maneuvering flight.  

Modern jets all have some form of yaw damper, aileron/rudder interconnect or stability augmentation systems (SAS).  Fly-by-wire have these functions built into the FCS.  These devices do the coordination for you, neutralize the negative effects and sometimes are smart enough to wash out aileron input and substitute rudder input during high AOA maneuvering.
Mace
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