Author Topic: Raid on Polesti  (Read 4807 times)

Offline skycaptn

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Raid on Polesti
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2006, 06:21:07 AM »
I think someone should remind krusty that HTC moderates these forums and its not required for krusty to attempt to do so.

Krusty see rule #99- "dont be a smaktard"

Offline VVV

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« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2006, 07:29:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I don't care WHAT website posts it. Use the gifts God gave you (logic and common sense) and if you don't have those, I'm sorry nobody can help you. None of the images so far have shown the B24s anywhere near "30" feet. Even the training one (the only one that comes close) has a margin of safety above trees that themselves are 40 feet or more.



The IAR 80 has been requested many times before. It would be nice, but not too different from a "poor-man's version" of the 190A. Less firepower, but slightly better manuverability.

It, like the Brewster, will get its day.... someday. My guess is "not anytime soon", but someday.


Okay. Do you get the Military Channel? If so, please watch this. I'm not exaggerating the altitudes these B-24's were at. There is a show called WWII Battlefront and on December 19, they'll be showing a re-run of the Ploesti raid. This show is where I got must of my info from. Here is website for the time:
http://military.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=39&cpi=107683&gid=0&channel=MIL

I strongly urge you to watch.
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Offline Treize69

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« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2006, 07:58:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
I'm wondering how in the world did IARs decimate the allied fighters @ Polesti...  The IAR is like 80 mph slower compare to 38s/47s/51s.


For the most part, people talk about the IAR "decimating" allied fighters in relation to the June 10th, 1944 raid on Ploesti, Bucharest and Brasov by the 1st and 82nd FGs in which nearly 1/4 (23, although all claims filed by the ARR, Luftwaffe and AAA crews amounted to 51 claims) the attacking force was lost to enemy fighters- only 1 71st Squadron P-38 (Lt. Herbert "Stub" Hatch) made it home, and he was credited with 5 "Fw-190s", despite the fact that only 3 of the defending IAR-81Cs were in fact shot down in that fight, 8 P-38s shot down outright and 7 more not making it back to base for various reasons. The USAAF pilots claimed 33 kills that day, though only a total of 14 aircraft were lost over all of Romania that day, and most of those were non-combat types caught on the ground or at low level by the Lightnings. This incident is often referred to as "Black Sunday".

For one thing, the P-38s came in OTD, in formation, with the sun in their faces right over a defended airfield where the defenders had been alerted to their approach and had ample time to climb out and set an ambush.

For another, many (but by no means all) of the Vanatoari by 1944 were seasoned veterans of 3 years on the Eastern Front and 2 years of the USAAF attacks, so they new what they were doing, and they knew their aircraft. Plus they were defending their home base and fighting over their own territory, which tends to make people fight a bit harder.

Saying its a lightly armed Fw-190 isn't really a fair comparison, I think of it more like a radial engined Spit V. Four 7.7mm MGs and two MG-151s (in the IAR-81C and 81M) in the wings, a wing loading of 27.1 lb/ft² (to 28 lb/ft² on the Spit V) and top speed around 340 mph at 23,000 ft (to 370 for the SpitV).

Might do pretty well in the MW, or with 6 MGs and bombs in the EW.
Treize (pronounced 'trays')- because 'Treisprezece' is too long and even harder to pronounce.

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Offline Platano

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Raid on Polesti
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2006, 10:34:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Treize69
If we get the IAR, it'll be Grupul 9. Started out in IARs, ended up in 109s.





So is that a Yes???

or a mayb??

 :D :D :D :D ;)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 10:39:21 AM by Platano »
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Fly Luftwaffe.

Offline Treize69

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« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2006, 11:15:17 AM »
Oh, incidentally, no IAR is ever confirmed to have shot down a P-51. This from Denes Bernad, the leading english language author on the ARR in WWII.

And Plat... we'll just have to wait until we get the IAR and see.

Anyone wanna contribute to a collection for the case of scotch to bribe HT? :D
Treize (pronounced 'trays')- because 'Treisprezece' is too long and even harder to pronounce.

Moartea bolșevicilor.

Offline Bodhi

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Raid on Polesti
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2006, 10:42:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
bodhi will openly admit he doesn't like anything I say, no matter what I say.


No, I do not dslike everything you say.  I dislike your wanton disregard for facts.  You claim to use logic and all else, but when you are wrong, you back pedal and accuse others of being false and with out fact.  This thread here is a prime example.  You come out with a statement of the raiders bombing from 3-4k up to 12-14k and flat out say they weren't on the deck.  You are full of crap.  I called you on it, as did most others.  Now you are pissed because your 15 yr old ego can't take being proven wrong.  


Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
A B24 itself is 60+ feet long with a 100 foot wingspan. Flying "30-40" feet above the ground is literally HALF its length.


Bravo... you can divide by two.  So, just because 30 feet is half it's length it can't fly at that level?  What level of idiocy does that come from?  You're now an expert in the capabilities of how low aircraft can fly too? :rolleyes:

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I'm the first to admit I don't know too much about Ploesti, and that I've only read a few things about it. I *DO* know, however, that even claiming that you run bombing missions at 30 feet is a false claim that you cannot back up. Look at the photos postd. Most of those look to be at least 250 feet. The one where the b24 is more distant looks at least 500-1000 feet, but hard to tell from the framing of the photo.


You prove, other than your "logic based claims" that they din't fly at those flight levels.  You again, don't know crap and are talking out your arse.  STFU once in awhile, realise that you are not a historian, but instead are a kid that really needs to pick up a book and learn.

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Even the lowest alt photo, the training photo, has them flying at least above the trees, which look to be 40+ feet tall, and the planes at LEAST 10+ feet above them.

Anything you say to the contrary is BS, Bodhi. Bombers cannot fly at 30 feet to a target, because most things sticking up from the ground (trees, buildings, power lines, smoke stakes, you name it) are 30 feet or more.

That was my point. I think it's self-evident. Quit flaming just because you're a BK.


So you're also an expert arborist as well?  How in the flipping hell do you know how high the frigging trees are near Polesti?  Have you been there?  Were you somehow able to conjure up a time warp and go back there to measure them at the time?  This "know-it-all" game you like to play is rediculous and a bunch of crap that may impress your little friends, but the real world likes to see facts.  

As for me calling you on it, it has nothing to do with being a BK.  It has to do with disgust at how you can not just shut up and realise when you are wrong.
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Offline E25280

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« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2006, 11:21:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Platano
Hey Chuck if HT brings that plane to AH you should "un-Disband" Grupul 7 Vanatoare....... just a thought....


Quote
Originally posted by Treize69
If we get the IAR, it'll be Grupul 9. Started out in IARs, ended up in 109s.
If you do that in the AvA, please let me know . . . I'd be happy to wing with you guys again.:aok

If you'll have me, that is . . . :(
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Offline rod367th

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Raid on Polesti
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2006, 05:07:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
bodhi will openly admit he doesn't like anything I say, no matter what I say.

A B24 itself is 60+ feet long with a 100 foot wingspan. Flying "30-40" feet above the ground is literally HALF its length.

I'm the first to admit I don't know too much about Ploesti, and that I've only read a few things about it. I *DO* know, however, that even claiming that you run bombing missions at 30 feet is a false claim that you cannot back up. Look at the photos postd. Most of those look to be at least 250 feet. The one where the b24 is more distant looks at least 500-1000 feet, but hard to tell from the framing of the photo.

Even the lowest alt photo, the training photo, has them flying at least above the trees, which look to be 40+ feet tall, and the planes at LEAST 10+ feet above them.

Anything you say to the contrary is BS, Bodhi. Bombers cannot fly at 30 feet to a target, because most things sticking up from the ground (trees, buildings, power lines, smoke stakes, you name it) are 30 feet or more.

That was my point. I think it's self-evident. Quit flaming just because you're a BK.





just go google type polesti and you see same planes hit smoke stacks because black smoke so thick.

Offline Treize69

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« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2006, 05:47:09 PM »
Google "polesti" and you'll be directed to a spellchecker program.
Treize (pronounced 'trays')- because 'Treisprezece' is too long and even harder to pronounce.

Moartea bolșevicilor.

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2006, 12:32:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Treize69
Google "polesti" and you'll be directed to a spellchecker program.


Yeah, I am bad about foreign spelling.


As for Krusty, you still not going to admit you are wrong?  Or does your silence mean what I think it does....
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Offline VVV

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« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2006, 12:46:49 PM »
Thanks for the support Bodhi.
Have you seen that program on the Military Channel about the raid on Ploesti? It's really good. :)
Now flying as FalconAM.

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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2006, 12:56:09 PM »
Bodhi, you're an idiot. Why your post hasn't been skuzzified I don't know.

As a reply to your juvenile explosion, I'm going to say this.

You want to know how tall a tree is? Step away from the GD computer and go outside and STAND NEXT TO ONE, dipchit. It's called reference. It's called "look at the freaking pictures YOU ARE USING AS SOURCES" and see what info is in the picture. Nowhere in any of the combat photos are the planes anywhere under 150 feet. The ONLY one that's under 100 feet is a training photo (and we all know that missions go off 100% exactly as they are trained for, right? Right.

Do yourself a favor and stop trying to be something you're not. Right or smart, take your pick, but stop trying to be either.

Offline Ball

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Raid on Polesti
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2006, 12:58:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I wouldn't mind seeing it.

Oh, FYI: The B24s weren't 30 feet off the ground. That's patently absurd, as most buildings are higher than that. By "low" they were talking 3-4k, but the bombers were scattered across different altitudes, up to 12 or 14k, if I recall properly.


The USAAF field order for the mission, they formed at medium alt, diving to 'Minimum' altitude, meaning treetop level.

Might wanna do a quick google search before posting stuff Krusty ;)

FIELD ORDER NO. 58
 
HEADQUARTERS
IX BOMBER COMMAND

APO 683, %
Postmaster
New York, N.Y.
28 July 1943

FIELD ORDER NO. 58
Maps: Plotting series and topographic charts of entire area - BENGASI, CORFU, BRACOV, CONSTANTA, INSTANBUL, CYPRUS.

1. a. See Intelligence Annex.

b. Friendly ground situation: no change.

2. The Ninth U.S. Air Force will attack and destroy the 7 principal oil refineries in the PLOESTI area on 1 August 1943 employing 7 target forces in a minimum altitude attack in order to deny the enemy use of the petroleum products processed in that area.

a. ASSEMBLY: On the line Site 7 - DRIANA - TOCRA, leading element to depart TOCRA at 0530 GMT.

b. ROUTE OUT: BENGASI - TOCRA - Northern tip of CORFU - PIROT - 43º50' N 23º43' E - PITESTI - IP - TARGET

ATITUDES: BENGASI to TOCRA to 38º20' N 20º08' E begin climb so as to cross CORFU at 10,000 feet until reaching PIROT. At PIROT begin descent so as to cross DANUBE at 3,000-5,000 feet. Remain at 3,000 to 5,000 feet until reaching PITESTI. From PITESTI to IPs maintain minimum altitude above terrain. From IP to target reduce altitudes to bombing level.

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2006, 01:00:19 PM »
Yes, Ball, we've covered that, but thanks for specifics. Nowhere have they shown planes flying "30-40" feet. Well below 'minimum' levels.

Offline VVV

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« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2006, 01:01:59 PM »
When I say 30-40 feet, I don't mean it over the oil field itself. I'm saying they flew that alt on approach to the field to avoid flak and to ultimatley achieve the element of suprise. The ofcourse they would have to gain alt to avoid collision into any structures.
Now flying as FalconAM.

~~~The Unforgiven~~~

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