Originally posted by Viking
It seems Humble is unwilling to admit the 109 was a competitive fighter. Oh well...
I never said that the 109 wasnt "competitive". The Brewster Buffalo was competitive, it's not a really high standard to meet once you realize that all front line combat planes were deadly when flown by quality pilots. What I'm saying is that the 109 evolved beyond its optimal development. I'll use the 109/P-39 as a comparision.
The 109D was clearly the dominant fighter in the world in 1937. The same time frame the 1st P-39 prototype was delivered. As designed the P-39 would have not only been the dominant plane of "1937" it would have been the 1st 400mph front line fighter and equal to any 1944 fighter of the war. That didnt happen and the P-39 entered service significantly watered down from its full potential. Both the 109 and the P-39 went thru significant evolution. I would view them from a nuetral historical perspective as being roughly equal. The 109 was the "backbone of the luftwaffe thru mid 1944 and the russians valued the P-39 so highly that continued delivery was a key provision of the potsdam accords. The combat record of the 109 speak for themselfs.....but so do the accomplishments of the soviets flying the P-39.
The P-63 entered service in 1943 (october) and was a significant "upgrade".
Engine: One 1,325-hp Allison V-1710-93 inline piston engine
Weight: Empty 6,375 lbs., Max Takeoff 10,500 lbs.
Wing Span: 38ft. 4in.
Length: 32ft. 8in.
Height: 12ft. 7in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at 25,000 ft: 410 mph
Cruising Speed: 378 mph
Ceiling: 43,000 ft.
Range: 450 miles (2,200 miles in ferry configuration)
Armament:
One 37-mm M4 cannon
Two nose-mounted 12.7-mm (0.5-inch) machine guns
Up to three 522-pound bombs
We'll compare this to the equivelent 109....(G6)
Engine: 1800-hp Daimler-Benz DB-605 inverted V-12 piston engine
Weight: Empty 5,893 lbs., Max Takeoff 6,945 lbs.
Wing Span: 32ft. 6.5in.
Length: 29ft. 7in.
Height: 11ft. 2in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at at 23,000 ft: 385mph
Ceiling: 38,500 ft
Range: 450 miles
Armament:
Two 13mm (0.51-inch) MG131 machine guns
Three 20mm MG151 cannon
Both of these are from warbird alley and are for "comparision". The G6 is listed with the gondola 20mm's....
Gunther Rall was unequivical in the belief that the 109F was the optimum evolution of the 109 and I agree. The 109 was simply pushed beyond its true useful life. Does that mean it wasnt competative, of course not. What it means is that it robbed the germans of another option. Yes they were evolving to jets, but piston driven planes played a major role in Korea and even vietnam.
If we look at the end of the war the americans, british, japanes and germans all had working jet prototypes. The 262 was clearly the furthest evolution but the P-80 and Meteor 3 were "competitive". The British and Americans both had significantly advanced pistion engine planes. both the P-63 and F7F were combat deployable by mid 1944 yet we didnt feel any need for either. This is what clearly shows the difference in the state of platfrom development.
The vast majority of military aviation historians lay the fall of the luftwaffe (in part) on its failure to move beyond the 109. This is a marked contrast to its design/production approach to tanks. Imagine the germans going into combat in 1944/45 in upgunned PZIII's. The PZIIIJ was the dominant tank of its era and the PZIVA was envisioned as an infantry tank. Yet by 1942 the realization that the PZIII wouldnt be able to keep up led to the "stop gap" PZIV (D,E,F,G,H){equivelent to the 109G10,14,K-4}
while the PZ V and PZ PZVI were under development.
When you consider that the 1st spitfire XIV was delivered in Oct, 1943 and the 1st spit XIV squad was active Jan, 4 1944 you see the problem. No question that the 109K-4 was "competitive"....but when did it really enter service. The germans were historically the technologial front runner (1st jet, best tank etc). The purely political favoritism that 109 enjoyed simply robbed the luftwaffe of any truely useful alternative beyond the 190. the real question is what might have been....
comparision spit XIV vs !09K4
