When did the Cold War start?

[Skuzzy]

Originally posted by Boroda
I told it many times before. When I hear two explainations of one historical event, one of them Western, second one - Soviet, both reasonable and without obvious logical faults, I definetly choose Soviet one. I hope you understand why

I can understand and appreciate this position.

Unfortunately, how history is recorded really depends on the person recording it, particulary as it pertains to politics.

[wt666]

Dear Comrade

Very interesting point of view from the area formerly behind the iron curtain. I have a question for the comrade. If the west started the cold war and was the aggressor, then why did the Communists have to build a wall around West Berlin? Was it to keep that nasty freedom from leaking into the Lenin Utopia? Or was it to keep the oppressed Germans from escaping.
Further the demarcation line between East and West Germany was mined, fenced, and patrolled by Russian troops who on over 100 occasions shot down unarmed Germans trying to cross over to the Western side. Number of incidents of people climbing over the fence going eastward? Zero.

As to the internal workings of the Soviet Union would you care to enlighten us dumb westerners as to the use of the Gulag system and the disappearance of millions of Russians into the vast prison system? Even your current government admits the murder of millions of its own citizens under Communist rule, and yet we are the aggressor and the mean blue side?

Propaganda is a powerful tool used by both sides and I dont for a minute say that the western hands are clean of blood. But in comparison from our side to your side, the Soviet system was at a minimum barbaric, and oppressive.

[Catalyst]

Originally posted by eagl
I'd say it started before the end of WWII, when Patton (among others) started to suspect that losing the race to Berlin would determine the shape of the post-war world.  McArthur's opinions and attitudes were merely an extension of this realization.

The Berlin Airlift and the Korean War were the first major skirmishes, but the war started back in 1944.

spot on, well said eagl...

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
K2, did you get my PM?

Yes, and I'll respond when I get home from work bro.   I hope things are going good for you.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by wt666
Dear Comrade

Propaganda is a powerful tool used by both sides and I dont for a minute say that the western hands are clean of blood. But in comparison from our side to your side, the Soviet system was at a minimum barbaric, and oppressive.

If you know arithmetic - you can easily count the victims of Western "activities" in last 200 years yourself. Let's begin with genocide of native Americans and Opium wars. If you call this "civilisation" - I prefer to stay an Asian barbarian on my shaggy mount.

Asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks my ass.

The key difference is that Russians simply wanted to survive, all the politics after 1917 was aimed at survival, while Western "civilised" countries were openly robbing and murdering other nations. So it goes. Just look, USSR never did anything that can be compared with recent activities of the "coalition of the willing"...

Sorry, I am a little upset by listening to the same crap over and over again. You guys have no imagination. Why not invent something new? Why not speak of bloody annexation of Tuva in 1944? Or Russian intervention in Manchuria in 1896-1905? Or Free Cossacks killing French troops in Abissinia in  1880s?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
I can understand and appreciate this position.

Unfortunately, how history is recorded really depends on the person recording it, particulary as it pertains to politics.

Unfortunately for me, in modern Russia official "history" now repeats Western point of view, it's because we pretend to be a part of "Western cultural trend" now. So we hear all kinds of hallucinations on national TV and other media. If we sum up all the numbers of "victims of Evil Stalin", WWII losses, victims of starvations etc that are in official propaganda - then I wonder why I am not the only person living in Russia now, all others were killed according to "official" history. Russians crucified Christ. Russians killed all the Jews. Et cetera ad nauseum.

K.I.S.S.: try to find sane reasons for this and that, and you'll see that many things that "everyone knows" turn into obvious propagana lies...

First example that came into my mind: Cuban missile crisis, US deployed missiles that could hit most of the European part of the USSR in Turkey long before Nikita sent missiles to Cuba.

[Ball]

Originally posted by Boroda
Unfortunately for me, in modern Russia official "history" now repeats Western point of view, it's because we pretend to be a part of "Western cultural trend" now. So we hear all kinds of hallucinations on national TV and other media. If we sum up all the numbers of "victims of Evil Stalin", WWII losses, victims of starvations etc that are in official propaganda - then I wonder why I am not the only person living in Russia now, all others were killed according to "official" history. Russians crucified Christ. Russians killed all the Jews. Et cetera ad nauseum.

K.I.S.S.: try to find sane reasons for this and that, and you'll see that many things that "everyone knows" turn into obvious propagana lies...

First example that came into my mind: Cuban missile crisis, US deployed missiles that could hit most of the European part of the USSR in Turkey long before Nikita sent missiles to Cuba.

So... communism was the voice of truth and reason, and democracy "official history of russia" tells you lies and anti communist propoganda?

China tells the truth in modern times about all of those mining deaths, stealing of land, peasants on the verge of revolt... and of course our good honest friends in North Korea...

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Ball
So... communism was the voice of truth and reason, and democracy "official history of russia" tells you lies and anti communist propoganda?

Anticommunist propaganda - yes, yes and yes. The reason is to make people believe that the disasters happening in the name of Sacred Democracy are nothing compared to troubles of communism. Justifying theft, corruption and ****ups by saying "look, howbad it was back then!".

Russia is a country with unpredictable past. I remember Soviet times pretty well, but young people aleady believe in all the horror-stories they see on TV now.

Soviet system was far from perfect, but neither is Western so-called "democracy". BTW in terms of "democracy" USSR was way more advanced then Western societies. Both systems have their pros and cons, they are not "good" or "bad", just different. Soviet system was our choice for 70 years, then it was destroyed by a gang of idiots and crooks, so now we can compare it with "capitalism". Believe me or not, but 90% of the people at this board will be absolutely happy under Soviet system (if we take entire population - i'll estimate 99%).

[soda72]

Originally posted by Boroda
BTW in terms of "democracy" USSR was way more advanced then Western societies.

yep more advanced.... anyone who opposed to the ruling party mysteriously disappeared...  

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Sandman
You could also argue that it started even before WWII ended.

I'd have to agree with this statement. Stalin had plans that went beyond the end of WW2 that were in action before the war ended. The control and use of "buffer countries" for example. It was an extension of empire without the czars.

Neither Churchhill or Roosevelt trusted Stalin very far, but they had to work with him to make sure the war ended with the right side on top.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by soda72
yep more advanced.... anyone who opposed to the ruling party mysteriously disappeared...  

Examples, please.

Seriously, please, give me any name of a person who "misteriously disappeared" in USSR because of his political views. I always hear about it, but I am surprised, why no people that I know disappeared because of that? Frankly speaking, I don't personally know anyone who "disappeared" at all. Maybe I lived in a different country?...

[Ball]

as opposed to being exiled and executed like Leon Trotsky?

[JB88]

well, they did eventually find the shallow grave of the executed romanov family ...so i guess it isn't a mystery anymore.

[JB88]

Originally posted by JB88
well, they did eventually find the shallow grave of the executed romanov family ...so i guess it isn't a mystery anymore.

oh and that stalin was such a kidder.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Ball
as opposed to being exiled and executed like Leon Trotsky?

Mister is a trotskist?... World revolution, barrack communism, etc? Hunweibins, Cultural Revolution, other funny ultra-left stuff?