Author Topic: Common Sense Has Left the Building... (Read 2328 times)

Xargos · « **Reply #45 on:** February 06, 2007, 05:25:10 PM »

A law should be past that no company can give out bonuses if that company has laid anyone off in the past two years.

AWMac · « **Reply #46 on:** February 06, 2007, 05:38:52 PM »

Need to find a nice cushy Govt job where you can sit for weeks in a 4 Star Hotel, Per Diem allowances of $10 for Breakfast, $20 for Lunch and $30 for Dinner...cruise around in a new 2007 Suburban, unlimited Corp Card and have unquestionable access to FAA sites and Systems via a Secure VPN access on the new Compaq nx7400 Laptop that sits near my new Corp Cell Phone...

Life is teh Sux...

Mac

Amazing what you can do on a "Beefed Up" Resume....

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #47 on:** February 06, 2007, 06:46:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Xargos
A law should be past that no company can give out bonuses if that company has laid anyone off in the past two years.

A law should be passed that anyone who thinks government involvement in business is a good idea will be banished to france.

Xargos · « **Reply #48 on:** February 06, 2007, 06:51:46 PM »

Government already gets involved, they give them big tax breaks. While us middle class must decide between paying for our medication or food.

P.S. And don't insult me like that. I despise Socialism and Communism more then anything else in the world.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 06, 2007, 07:07:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Xargos
Government already gets involved, they give them big tax breaks. While us middle class must decide between paying for our medication or food.

P.S. And don't insult me like that. I despise Socialism and Communism more then anything else in the world.

Who cares about tax breaks when we shouldn't be taxed at all?

What do you think socialism is? Socialism is you believing you know better then someone else's free choice. And then legislating away that free choice.

Don't argue that you hate socialism when you are a proponent of it.

Xargos · « **Reply #50 on:** February 06, 2007, 07:20:13 PM »

If a company knowingly does something that hurts this Country then I say they need to be reeled in. The biggest problem with this country is we have to many laws and those laws are only enforced on certain people. Just because I don't believe owners of big companies should rule this country does not make me UnAmerican.

P.S. I have to agree with you on the taxes though.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #51 on:** February 06, 2007, 07:40:44 PM »

And giving out bonuses hurts this country how?

Xargos · « **Reply #52 on:** February 06, 2007, 07:54:14 PM »

People work for a company for 20 or 30 years and have earned their retirement then have some new CEO come in and steal that money is OK with you?

Those retired people then have to get help from the Government which hurts this country.

I don't believe people should be rewarded for running a company into the ground.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #53 on:** February 06, 2007, 09:15:24 PM »

You've been conditioned to equate a company's bonus with a very small number of people stealing the company's money.

They are not one in the same.

AWMac · « **Reply #54 on:** February 06, 2007, 09:59:23 PM »

Someday lasersailor184 I pray you have to work for a living.

Mac

Toad · « **Reply #55 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:59:50 AM »

^

Give him time; the real world has a way of changing viewpoints.

lazs2 · « **Reply #56 on:** February 07, 2007, 08:29:35 AM »

toad... Of course it is not entirely the unions fault but... the lions share is. The health care and other costs you mention are all driven by unions.

If your cost per hour for an employee is twice that of the competition then your engineers and management have to be either twice as clever or twice as ruthless or a combination of both... I don't believe it is possible for either GM or toyota to be twice as clever as each other.

The result is that the labor costs drive the quality and the management of a company that has to compete. You have to ask your engineers to cut corners.

You can't say we don't have the talent... Look at breakthrough ideas like the new vette and Mustang and even.. the ecotech motor where lot's of money was put into research and damn the profits... sadly... if the labor was cheaper tho... there would be profits on some of these projects along with better quality control and materials... if that were true... no other car company could compete.

We have the best engineers and designers in the world. They are constricted by cost.

Sadly.. the worker is good too... he is no worse than the American building toyotas... But... because he costs so much... he has less time to make sure the job is done right and he is throwing inferior quality parts together on a line that can't be shut down to modernize and can't afford to pay him overtime as easily as his competition... If GM offers bonus's to it's workers like toyota.. it would have to be over and above the already insane wage and benefit package that the unions have gotten over the years.

When it fails.. when it all falls apart.. the unions will die too... thousands will be jobless... the unions don't care any more than management and are bending even less while having an even larger effect on the collapse.

The unions will be just as much to blame as management... maybe more so... and... they care as little as the management does.

They are not socialist saints.. they are mainly high living gangsters in union management. Every bit as evil as the worst enron exec.

lazs

Toad · « **Reply #57 on:** February 07, 2007, 08:45:16 AM »

Well, we're just gonna disagree Laz.

I think if you cut out the difference caused by retirees, for example, the situation would be a lot closer. And, has been pointed out, the "job bank" where idle workers still get paid was a management bargaining goal.

What do you do with those retirees? They worked their lives for the company with the understanding that the retirement would be there. It was a part of the package all those years. Now do you just cancel it because a newer company came in without those legacy costs? When is a deal a deal? This is why any retirement funds should be held in the employees own name.

You think labor wears the lion's share of the blame. I think the mud is essentially equally distributed. The difference is the idiot managers will walk with literally tens of millions of dollars when the company fails, the union bosses will have hundreds of thousands and the everyday working stiff will get nothing but the shaft.

Without abusive management, there'd be no unions.

Unfortunately the only thing worse than a union is ..... no union.

lazs2 · « **Reply #58 on:** February 07, 2007, 08:54:35 AM »

well... what does toyota do with it's retirees? Why aren't you all upset with toyotas evil management who is consigning their workers to hell on earth?

We do partially agree on the last statement.. but... I think the idea of unions is bad. I think the idea of collective barganing is good.

There should be some way to negotiate fairly. There are groups who do this... professional barganing units.. Arbitrators... Many companies use an "interest based" negotiating style now where everyone lays their cards on the table.

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #59 on:** February 07, 2007, 08:59:53 AM »

as for retirement... the worst examples are those of both union plans and management plans... the very worst are when employees are conned by either unions or management.

enron and the unions who take the money and run.. only a fool would put their entire retirement stake in either.

If a kid at 20 puts $50 a week in a 401 k for instance (he is making $25 an hour don't forget doing unskilled labor) he will be so rich when he retires that it won't matter how bad the unions or the management or social security screwed him.

Why can't a union auto worker afford a 401k? Why can't he buy and pay for a house in his lifetime? Why can't he buy other property or make other investments? why does the management or the unions or the government have to do it for him?

lazs