Sinister motives for der 'Vader

[Karnak]

Originally posted by MotorOil1
Airsoft Minigun X8  = 400 rounds per second

You're comparing 50s to 303s

No, I comparing bullets to bullets.  He was saying it would cause lag as an advantage due to the number of bullets.  I was pointing out that there is no lag caused by the Spit/Hurri Mk Is.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by -SR-
I think if the Vader wins it should be free like the Mossie. Save the perks for a B29.

-SR-:noid

Mossie is a fighter, not a bomber.

[1Boner]

Originally posted by Karnak
Mossie is a fighter, not a bomber.

Mossie was alot of things  (sound familiar?)

it was used as a fighter/bomber/reconnaissance plane

recon was the 1st use--PA Mk.1

1942 the Mk.IV bomber

end of 43 was Mk.XVI Bomber--pressurized  cockpit/3,973lb bomb load.

the mossie was most widely used in the role of fighter/bomber

the most used plane was the Mk.VI series fighter/bomber


mossie is alot of fun in the game

the A-26 will be just as much fun.



VOTE FOR FUN!!!   VOTE A-26 !!!!!     VOTE FOR FUN!!!!    VOTE A-26!!!!



Your pal,

Boner:aok

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Rino
Wow, now even the HTC guys have been added to the great unwashed
list.  Methinks they alone know whether they want the Invader perked or
not.   Assuming of course that the sentimental favorites bow out this round.

(sigh)

The topic of perked bombers has come up for long before I got here, and the A-26 Invader is usually mentioned along with the B-29, He-177, and the Mossie version (forget which at the moment) often requested, as perk-worthy bombers that could be added to game.  Been told we won't see the B-29 often enough.  He-177 has some of the problems of being added to the game the B-29 does.  That leaves the Mossie and 'Vader.  Vader made the list this time.

Also, there have been discussions regarding an additional perk bomber in topics such as "bomb-and-bail", and "dive bombing buffs", and NOE Lancs.  

B-model's 14 X .50's, plus barbettes, almost requires a perk cost added to the plane.  Otherwise, it'd be like having free C-Hogs in game.... few other Hogs would be seen if 4 X 20mms were free with Hog.  A free Invader would also sent most other bombers and attack planes to the back of the hangar.  

Added to game I'd like to see the Invader, both B and C models with drones, but not unlimited use.  That's too much, IMHO.

What an Invader would cost in buff perks?  Definitely a topic deserving it's own thread.  B-model? C-model?  Drones?  All must be considered.

[Karnak]

1Boner,

Oddly, I was refering to the one Mossie we have in AH and what it is classified as in AH.  And what I meant was that having near fighter performance on a plane coming out of the bomber hangars would cause an issue.  When the Mossie was first added it was listed as a bomber and it was saw heavy use as a fighter once the fighter hangars were down.  A bombless Mossie with 25% fuel isn't a horrid fighter, and it has real bite in the nose.  It was moved to the fighter categorey for that reason, and because historically the FB.Mk VI was used only by Fighter Command.

I have about $250 worth of books on the Mosquito within arm reach of me right now.

[1Boner]

Originally posted by Karnak
1Boner,

Oddly, I was refering to the one Mossie we have in AH and what it is classified as in AH.  And what I meant was that having near fighter performance on a plane coming out of the bomber hangars would cause an issue.  When the Mossie was first added it was listed as a bomber and it was saw heavy use as a fighter once the fighter hangars were down.  A bombless Mossie with 25% fuel isn't a horrid fighter, and it has real bite in the nose.  It was moved to the fighter categorey for that reason, and because historically the FB.Mk VI was used only by Fighter Command.

I have about $250 worth of books on the Mosquito within arm reach of me right now.

i think it would be wise for anyone attacking a base to take down the
bomber hangers too.

there won,t just be IL2s upping anymore.

thats IF the A-26 makes it through.

i respect your knowledge on the mossie

but, if the 26 makes it through , it will be interesting to see how it is classified.

i guess it will depend on the series they decide to develop.


good talkin with ya,

Boner



ps.  i,ll give ya 50 bucks for the mossie books!!!:cool:

[Karnak]

Pyro has mentioned the A-26 as an example of a perk bomber before.  When I talked with him in 2005 the B-29, A-26 and Mosquito B.Mk XVI were the only things likely to be perk bombers that hadn't been added yet.  Nothing else really has the performance or capability to justify being a perk bomber.

Because the A-26 is likely to be perked it won't be used for defense of a vulched field like the Mossie was.

If it isn't perked, you are of course right.

[moot]

Karnak, sorry to get off topic, and I asked you this before I think, but forgot.
The mossie we have is the best furballer there was?

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Karnak
Pyro has mentioned the A-26 as an example of a perk bomber before.  When I talked with him in 2005 the B-29, A-26 and Mosquito B.Mk XVI were the only things likely to be perk bombers that hadn't been added yet.  Nothing else really has the performance or capability to justify being a perk bomber.

Because the A-26 is likely to be perked it won't be used for defense of a vulched field like the Mossie was.

If it isn't perked, you are of course right.

Well, it won't be used as much as the IL-2 is for defense, if perked, but there are quite a few buff drivers with a few thousand bomber perks to burn, and it comes down to how much an Invader will cost to lift, whether or not it sees base defense.

As for another comparison as to why the A-26 Invader should be perked.

A-20G
6 X .50's in the nose, 350 rpg (2,100 rds total) = about 26 seconds firing time.
2 X .50's in the dorsal turret, 400 rpg (800 rds total) = about 30 seconds firing time

A-26B
14 X .50's in nose and wings, 400 rpg (5,600 rds total) = about 30 seconds firing time......I'd expect primary trigger to be 8 guns in nose, 2ndary trigger to be 6 guns in wings, as all banks in Invader had on/off selector switches in firing circuit  --- so up to 60 seconds total firing time if banks used separately.

2 X .50's in dorsal AND ventral barbettes X 500 rpg (2,000 rds total) = about 37 seconds firing time if fired together.  Nearly as many rounds as A-20 has in it's nose.


'Vader also a bit faster (355mph max), stronger airframe design, can pull 7 to 8 G maneuvers according to some reports.  'Vader also carries more ord, with more ord options.  C-model has 6 fewer nose guns, but does have Norden bombsight for level bombing role, and was even faster than the A-26B (374mph by one source).

[Karnak]

Originally posted by moot
Karnak, sorry to get off topic, and I asked you this before I think, but forgot.
The mossie we have is the best furballer there was?

No, the NF.Mk XIII and NF.Mk XIX would be better at all alts and the NF.Mk 30 would be WAY better at high alt (high blown engines, 424mph top speed) but a bit worse in the weeds.  At least 50 of the XIIIs had N2O installed in 1943, boosting speed by 47mph at 28,000ft on the same engines as the Mk VI in AH has.

We have the "Jack-of-all-trades" Mosquito in AH, and the most common with my than 2,700 Mk VIs built.  The most famous raids tended to be done by Mk VIs.

[Karnak]

tedrbr,

Yes, I know it will.  I wasn't meaning to imply it wouldn't see heavy use.  Just that as a base defender, ala Il-2 and pre-fightered Mossie, it wouldn't see much.

[shamroc]

Why perk it ?  The Mosquito/110g2 are already faster and more maneuverable aircraft (in the same general class), and both have superior firepower.  The A-26 only brings a bigger bomb payload to the table (and also is a larger target, therefore is easier to hit, having almost a 20ft wider wingspan than either)

The A-26 is kind of one step between a fighter-bomber and a medium bomber (a little less speed, a little less firepower, and a little more bombs)...  

An improved A-20 if you will (not an arena powerhouse by any measure).  

Yeah I know - 14-15 .50 cals sounds great, but it still doesn't outshoot 4x20mm cannons.

According to Shaw (Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering) page 6:
Lethality Rating
----------------------
4x20mm M3 cannons = 4x18.2= 72.98 lethality (Mosquito)
14x.50cal M3 guns = 6.4x14 = 89.6 lethality (A-26)
* keep in  mind, the lethality rating does not take into consideration that cannon rounds are HE explosive (alternating ball bearing slug/HE round for Hispanos).  

Compared to a 110g2 with 30mm's ?  Forget it !

The A-26 is a respectable "light bomber", but it's not something that would turn the arenas inside out - if it wins, it will be very popular at first, then after about a month, it will become nothing more than a "cult plane" - just like it was in Air Warrior (small but incredibly enthusiastic A-26 following).

It will never be much of a threat as a fighter unless you are:
1) a total dweeb or
2) you totally underestimate it and the guy flying it has >25% fuel AND is a skilled player (just like with the A-20)

Having said all the above, I'm voting A-26 all the way, and have been since the first round (me being a nostalgic DOS/AW vet).

...lot of good memories in that ride.  Large A-26 raids on bases would be a serious good time....

Shamroc

[Karnak]

shamroc,

Because they are not in the same class.  The Mosquito Mk VI and Bf110G-2 are both fighters, neither of which carry 6,000lbs of bombs.  The A-26 is an attack bomber.  Fighter performance is acceptable for fighters, not bombers.  Leaving it unperked would eliminate the use of a lot of other aircraft, thus decreasing the variety of aircraft in the MA rather than increasing it by adding a new aircraft.

[tedrbr]

Agreed, the A-26 is primarily a medium bomber class that had the performance to take on attack roles.  Two of the three planes it was meant to replace were medium level bombers, and it's ord capacity of 6K lbs is in the medium bomber range.  If added, it should be as a bomber, IMO.

Also, in regards to the lethality listing pulled from Shaw's work, how many rounds and what would be the total firing time of those 4 X 20mm, compared to the 30 second firing time of those 14 X .50's X 400 rpg?

The A-26 can, on average, take more high deflection shots and land hits.  It would also have better reach with those .50's, on average, than the 20mm's.  

Then, if the A-26 wins, it will come down to which version and block number they decide to model. Early block 5's?  Most common Block 50's?  Others?

A B-model with or without drones?  A C-model with drones for level bombing?  Both - since it is just a nose configuration change?  B would definitely be a perk plane, for the reasons already given.  C probably still should be, so Ki-67's and B-26's still get flown, but maybe 3 C-models (lead plus 2 drones) costs what 1 B-model does?

[shamroc]

The (proverbial) A-26 is simply not an overall dominant aircraft - The perk point system is there to prevent very advanced aircraft from completely dominating the arenas (ie: if we didn't have perk points, you'd have nothing but Me262s, Me163s and Tigers in the arenas).  Introducing the A-26 will not mean other rides won't be flown - in fact, to almost every other ride out there, an A-26 = an easy kill (all pilots being equal).

Only reason why the 234 is perked (or should be perked ;-)) is because you need a 262 to catch it.  Not so with the A-26.

The (proverbial) A-26 simply wouldn't dominate like the current perk rides do.  It simply would not outfight, or outrun the vast majority of aircraft out there.

Not saying it isn't one hell of a cool ride (I'm voting for it all the way) deserving of it's own "niche" of usefullness, just saying it's nothing that will dump the LW arena on it's ear - so there is NO NEED to perk it.

Also, the A-26 only entered combat in Nov 1944 - so you simply shouldn't find it in the Early or Mid arenas (where perking it might be justified).

Now, if you mean that the A-26 would discourage the use of the A-20 or B-26, that is another matter - but this is no different than what we have with the SpitV/Spit XVI, P-51B/P-51D, BostonIII/A-20 or LA-5/LA-7 etc.  

The solution for this (minor) problem is the ENY/VALUE system to REWARD the player with higher perks points (and serious bragging rights) for taking a lesser ride into successful combat ie:landing three kills in a P-51B will turn a lot more heads (and pay a lot better) than landing three in a P-51D.  Ditto for bombing ground targets etc.

So, proper ENY/VALUE settings is all that the A-26 needs.  It is NOT perkworthy IMHO.

shamroc

shamroc,
Because they are not in the same class. The Mosquito Mk VI and Bf110G-2 are both fighters, neither of which carry 6,000lbs of bombs. The A-26 is an attack bomber. Fighter performance is acceptable for fighters, not bombers. Leaving it unperked would eliminate the use of a lot of other aircraft, thus decreasing the variety of aircraft in the MA rather than increasing it by adding a new aircraft.