A question on ethics in FSO

[toadkill]

Originally posted by Dream Child
Well this is interesting, we're here having a discussion about being honorable in a war. To HO or not to HO in the FSO, that is the question. I'll answer it. If there's an enemy plane in front of my nose, I'm pulling the trigger. If that happens to be a HO, then so be it. I'm not going to look for the HO, because I don't want to deliberately give someone the chance to shoot at me. I'm not going to try to avoid the HO in a furball. If he's too darned dumb to come strait at me and not pull the trigger and he dies, then he's dead, and I won't have to fight him any more, and he won't be able to shoot down any more of my buddies, just like in real life. May I suggest to Mr. Toad or anyone else, that if you're looking for the HO, you probably won't last long anyways, so it's really not much of a threat.

First off. this ISN'T war. And comparing it to war is stupid. We play this for fun, and We play in FSO to fight against the people that have been around this game longer than two weeks. The people who don't do it for the Kill. They do it for the fun of the fight, and To work together with their squadies.

And to the people instructing me how to fly. You guys said it your self that in certain situations you can be forced to go nose to nose as the safest strategy. In my situation there, it was the safest. And i was Comming up under him and trying to pull an immel (sorry never really knew how to spell that), he just happened to nose down and Ho me.

To Kurt, as Kermit says, it is only a HO if one (or more) person fires.

If any of you were to fly with me for any amount of time, you would know that I fly with very quick decisions based on the logical evaluation of my situation. And if I end up nose to nose with someone, its got the largest chance from ,my experience, that i would come out alive. And in FSO i was assuming that other squads use the understood rules that my squad still abides by.

It seems though that These rules have been thrown out the window, considering both the CO and XO of my squad's FSO division were shot down by Ho's and another pilot also was. 3 in one night.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I see this statement made by noobs all to often.

It only takes 1 to fire.

Right, because after 5 years, I'm a noob... Go do your homework.

[Dream Child]

To Mr. Toad and others who feel like him, I offer this advice:

If you don't want to be involved with a HO, then you need to assume the other guy is going to shoot at you, and take evasive maneuvers in such a way that the other plane can't get a shot on you. If you're not willing to do this, then don't complain when you get shot down.

A HO is not a good tactic, unless you have better fire power and armor, and can't out maneuver the other guy. If you can't out maneuver the other guy, then it may be your only shot. On the other hand, if he was out maneuvering you, he wouldn't be face to face with you anyways. To not expect the HO shot when face to face is actually quite naive.

[Valkyrie]

Watch your mouths children. Talking about Hos like this. Don't you know people lose thier jobs by doing that?


lol
sometimes comdey helps
Vlkyrie1

[toadkill]

Originally posted by Dream Child
To Mr. Toad and others who feel like him, I offer this advice:

If you don't want to be involved with a HO, then you need to assume the other guy is going to shoot at you, and take evasive maneuvers in such a way that the other plane can't get a shot on you. If you're not willing to do this, then don't complain when you get shot down.

A HO is not a good tactic, unless you have better fire power and armor, and can't out maneuver the other guy. If you can't out maneuver the other guy, then it may be your only shot. On the other hand, if he was out maneuvering you, he wouldn't be face to face with you anyways. To not expect the HO shot when face to face is actually quite naive.

You are repeating what others have already said. And i have, in fact, Already stated that i was maneuvering to get behind the enemy, and that he insisted to put his guns on me NOW. and not even try to out maneuver my 109G6 with gondies in his big, slow, and unmaneuverable spit 5.

[Kermit de frog]

Originally posted by Kurt
Right, because after 5 years, I'm a noob... Go do your homework.

I didn't say you were a noob.

Just because you've been playing for 5 years doesn't mean you aren't a noob, or does it?  Is that my homework assignment?

I'll say it again, but this time I'll type slower.

It only takes 1 to fire.

You got that noobie?

Now let's all go and play nicely with each other.

[Stoney74]

So, lets say you're flying your Spit for over an hour on a mission, and since your butt is sore from sitting in the seat, you loosen up your harness just a little to allow yourself to adjust your position a bit.  In the heat of the moment, in the expectation of immediate combat, you forget to tighten it up again.  There would be no sensation quite as unnatural and un-nerving as the feeling of your feet flying off the rudder pedals, seat coming out from underneath you, and your knees hitting the panel as you pushed the stick forward, pulling -3 or -4 G's to take that HO shot.  

Unfortunately, there are just some aspects of reality that can't be modeled in the game.  So, I figure we get as close as we can and enjoy the game as best we can.  

My two cents.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I didn't say you were a noob.

It only takes 1 to fire.

You got that noobie?

Honestly Kermit, whatever your point is, you're not making it.

It only takes 1 to fire regardless of if one is on your six or at your twelve.  Its an irrelavent remark and I don't understand what you think you are saying that negates my original post.

I made my post, you quote it and say "Yeah, noobs say that all the time".  Then you make this 'only takes one to fire' remark...  SO?  WHAT?  It also only takes one to miss.

My point is... Make them miss.  Its easy.

I can't remember the last time I was killed in an H.O. unless I was also commited to the H.O. shot.  As soon as I chose not to commit, I failed to get shot.

Therefore, when two were no longer commited, the whole thing failed to happen.

IT TAKES TWO.

Noobs, or vets... TWO shall be the number of the H.O.  Not 1, not 3.... 4 is right out....

2

If you want to play chivalry russian roulette, then you've got no business crying when it turns out the other guy doesn't buy into your brand of chivalry...

[Wind]

Originally posted by toadkill
First off. this ISN'T war. And comparing it to war is stupid. We play this for fun, and We play in FSO to fight against the people that have been around this game longer than two weeks. The people who don't do it for the Kill. They do it for the fun of the fight, and To work together with their squadies.

If it saves my squaddie, I'll HO you every time.  (don't doubt my resolve)

It seems though that These rules have been thrown out the window,  

and where did you read "these" rules?

[Kermit de frog]

Wind, unwritten rules are hard to read.

Kurt, your remark to me earlier was you thinking I was calling you a noob. The point of my 2nd post was to dispute that.  But let's forget that and stick to the main point of discussion.


It only takes 1 to fire on a head on to ruin the fun factor.
To save your squaddie by ho'n your opponent is cheap.  I've come to the conclusion that people, even as adults will not understand that.  I'm not trying to force you to fly a certain way, I'm only standing up for what I believe in when the time comes.

Not all head ons can be avoided.

If you still believe that you can avoid ALL ho's, after 5 years of AH, that says something about your thinking process.

There is a whole lot more to AH than getting a kill.  I'm sure you are aware of this.

[Kurt]

Yes Kermit, there is no doubt that we fundamentally disagree.

I avoid H.O. at almost all times.  However, if someone finds a way to sucker me into it, then shame on me.  Because I know better than to do it.  Once in a while I get over zealous and I commit... And as we are all well aware, thats usually no better than a 50-50% run.

The price of H.O. is extracted in game...  Anything you can honestly call an H.O. (meaning that both planes set up the condition at 1500 or so out) is avoidable...

If you're going to say that H.O. is any time someone lands a shot on you while traveling the opposite direction regardless of how he ended up there, then thats where I have to call schenanigans.  A nose to nose snap shot that develops during the course of a normal engagement is not an H.O.  I would take that shot if I felt it would pay off.

Anyhow, the short version, in my opinion is that the only place where you should expect your opponenet to be anything other than a H.O. shooting bastage is in D.A. where you design the rules in advance.  

In the M.A. and SEA, I always assume that the bad guy is going to use any opportunity.  Any other assumption is a receipe for a bad day.  And we all know this.

And thats my point...  You can deny them the shot as long as you start with the assumption that they will take that shot.  However, if you naively go in expecting any courtesy from your opponent, then the only person who goofed is the guy who died.  That is the nature of game.   And getting mad about it in the forum really says nothing more than "I goofed and died for it and now I'm here to complain about it."

The unhappiness of the original poster is not the fault of the guy who shot him... His unhappiness is his own.  It was caused by an error in his own assumption that he could trust his opponent.

As long as people keep trying to blame their own frustrations on others, the argument will never end.  Take responsibility for your successes AND your failures.  Blaming your failure on the opponent is weaker than a cheap H.O.

[Kermit de frog]

Very well said Kurt.

Sounds like the differnece in our flying philosophies are when it comes to ho's that are setup up quickly during a furball.  You will take the shot during a furball if everyone is turning and the ho was established at a very close distance like 600 or closer while I will never fire on someone unless behind their 3-9 line.  Your ethics sound very good and established and that's cool.  I'd much rather fight someone in the skies like you than someone that will go for the HO anytime.  I agree with many things you've said in your last post.
Kurt

[Kurt]

[toadkill]

I have no idea how i let this thing spiral into a big debate, and a small event of "everyone with different views of how FSO should go, stomp-on-toad-fest". But i do know its my fault, and that this whole thing wouldn't have happened had i turned away from the spit, mid-immel and let him get on my 6, where i could set him up for my squadies to get an easy kill. But i have been sick for the last few days, and I've been quite grumpy because of it and the last few weeks of crap I've been dealing with.

Gents

[Kurt]

Originally posted by toadkill
I have no idea how i let this thing spiral into a big debate.

When has anyone ever brought up the great HO debate without it turning into a big debate?