A question on ethics in FSO

[Kermit de frog]

[4XTCH]

Our squad (Chawks) and the JG11 were the first to encounter the Tiffies near A37. Wow!! what a fight. We had the slight alt advantage and took them on as best as the G2's could. After Stampf and I chased a lone tiff back over the water, it was clear that we could not catch him so I preceded to RTB to see if I could pick up what remained of my squad.
 There, I encountered 2 tiffs 3 o'clock co alt. I turned , they turned towards me as well. "OH CR@P!" I'm saying to my self.
With the tiffs side by side I turned closer to the right one at my 12. Saw him open up and tried to lower the nose a bit right. Too late, he gets my oil and we collide, him taking my left wing in the process. DAMN!! was I pizzed.
But only for a minute.. see, I put myself into that situation. I was by myself and shoulda just ran for help. Thinking that a 2 v 1 in their advantage they might be conservative was wrong. He knows I've got cannons and I know he does as well. It's Kill or be Killed in FSO. HO's are a legitmate tactic and you should expect them if you go nose to nose with another player, this isnt the DA where those rules of first merge engagements can be clearly established.


just my .02


4XTCH

[Stampf]

4XTCH.

Ya, it was a good fight.  Certainly no shortage of Tiffs.  After we broke off that solo, I too tried to regroup with what was left of II/JG11.  Locating Zud, we grouped up, but before making it back to A37, we ran into 4 more tiffs, and engaged again.  The lead typhoon came straight at me, like a bullet train.  I pushed the nose down, but too late.  Yes, a collision.  The Tiff went down, I sustained no damage.  The wierd part was I felt bad that it happened.  I could have evaded more aggressively, or not tried the deflection shot, or he could have not charged my prop like that, or also evaded more aggressively.  It happens, it's always going to happen.  Unless you know who is at the stick of the enemy plane, assume he's going to shoot, or at least try to.  Shoot back or get out of the way.

I think the FSO is the best AHII has to offer, and the guys there are top notch, but I would never assume that the enemy won't try to kill me, any way they can.

[shreck]

Dont listen to Kermit! hes much less dangerous in RED  !:p

[Sketch]

Originally posted by Stampf
...and the guys there are top notch...

 He said we're top notch!!

I knew someone cared!:D

[2fly]

I dont want to reignite this "debate" I just want to subject you all to my opinion on the subject just because I can. Yes I am evil like that.

I personally think that deliberate HOs are the second lowest form of poor sportsmanship out there.  Second only to vultching.  It seems to be that every Niki pilot out there leaves his airfield with only one plan in mind. HO! HO!HO!HO!  A little exagerated I know, but you have to admit it sure seems that way.  

I do agree with Kurt that it takes two to complete a deliberate HO from range.  You always have the option to turn, jink, roll or otherwise avoid that evil slime on the other side of those 20mm cannons.  

I have to admit however that I have been taken down so many times by this despicable tactic that I have developed a habbit.  In a looming Ho situation I will attempt a slight turn, if the enemy then turns into me then I will go for the HO and pray to the gods o war that he gets what he deserves.  With luck the other fellow doesnt want to HO either and will take the opportunity to avoid it that I offered.  Someday I even hope to see a Niki take that offer.  (Even Moses probably wouldnt live that long, but everyone has to have a dream right?)

Snap shots that occur during  a furball are completely legititamate.  

All vultures should die in flames.
 
All of that was a long winded way of saying that however distasteful HOing may be, it IS a legitimate tactic of war.(so is vulching)  Albeit a foolishly reckless one in my book.

All vultures should die in flames.

Oh...one more thought to leave you with.

All vultures should die in flames.

[Sled]

Glad to see you boys decided to play nice.


As a member of the FSO CM Team. I can tell all of you this.

No one on the FSO Team or any CO or XO, can really do anything to stop pilots from HO's. With that in mind, you would all be well served to take action to make sure you are not the victim of one.

FYI, you can usually avoid an HO and gain angles on your opponent at the same time giving yourself an advantage.


And remember my favorite saying regarding HO's.

"One mans HO, is the other's 175deg deflection shot."

[Gumbeau]

If one of the 2 pilots is trying to avoid the head on pass then, by definition it isn't head on.

It takes both pilots to create a head on pass.

Both pilots have a shot...its head on.

If only one has it shot it isn't head on.

So if just one is manuevering to avoid then it isn't a head on.

Since it takes both pilots to create the head on complaints about it are rather silly.

Its like two guys having consensual sex and then one complaining that he has to catch.

[Dantoo]

I was just reading this thread with general disinterest, until I saw Stampf's post and then it seemed to me that noone had raised the point that what you see on your end is not always the same as is seen on the other end.

Here is a reasonable case in point.  I was in the tiff that Stampf was writing about here:

but before making it back to A37, we ran into 4 more tiffs, and engaged again. The lead typhoon came straight at me, like a bullet train. I pushed the nose down, but too late. Yes, a collision. The Tiff went down, I sustained no damage.

Let me first throw in a little background here so as to frame the kind of day I was having.  I had just downloaded the new update patch.  It left me with a display that looked like a cheap comic book.  I couldn't even see other planes for the most part.  I could see icons, guns blazing, but not the planes.  At distance I could get a dot, but then it would sort of flicker in and out of vision until close and I mean close, real close.

I was in an enagement with a whole bunch of G2's and I nearly rammed 3 of them (or the same guy 3 times, who knows).  It was screamingly frustrating.  (Squaddies will attest to my screaming frustration).   We were exiting to regroup.  My wingman called that he was being closed down by a 109.  He was trailing me more than 1k back.  I looped over the top to clear his six.

I was again seeing an icon with occasional glimpses of an associated plane.  I continued the loop looking to make a pass and continue through, down and away back in the direction of original heading.  I was fast, real fast as I came down - upside down!  I expected the pursuer to break, which would be my purpose achieved.  Suddenly I get a call, "He's going up!"  Damn, I couldn't see him, just his icon, I see fire and I am firing.  I see hit sprites and I am past him.  A few laggy seconds later I hear a bang and my wing is gone.

Read Stampf's view again and compare it to mine.  Quite similar and yet quite different.  Point of view is of huge importance as to what is seen.  You just have to realise you can only control what is happening on your end and just hope some magic code transmitted over the internet helps to correlate it with the view on his end.  Here is a couple of pics of the last second before passing in this incident,  note the pics from his end may look entirely different:





Oh, don't even bother getting me started on "rubber bullets".  We know they don't exist officially, ipso-facto therefore they do not exist at all.

BTW Stampf.

Please note that all this post is about is here is an illustration that "what you see" is not necessarily always "what you get" and is not to be construed as commentary on anything else.

[Stampf]

Salute sir.

[Sled]

Looks like one of those "175deg" deflection shots to me.



IMHO, that is a clean kill in FSO.

[Dantoo]

Mmmm it's not the point.  The point is that we can actually have two completely different pictures on our monitors.

IMHO, that is a clean kill in FSO.

And that is the ironic/funny/HTC part that emphasises what I am saying.  From the logs:

Stampf
22:04:10 Departed from Field #37 in a Bf 109G-2
22:34:28 Shot down a Typhoon flown by Dantoo.
23:15:51 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #37.
23:36:04 Joined by ZUD as gunner/observer.
23:37:42 Bravely Bailed from damaged plane.

From the pictures you might jump to the conclusion that the 109 got shot?
The logs show the truth of it.  He was undamaged and flew on to die bravely elsewhere.  The tiff died.

He flew aggressively and skilfully and deserved the kill.  I flew like a frustrated fool and died.  The outcome was spot on.

My point is all about how what you're seeing is not necessarily "ALL" that is happening.  The other guy's picture may be completely different even if he is using two eyes and not just the big one in the middle of his forehead.

You cannot know what the other guy is seeing.  The closer you are together and the faster you are manouvering the less likely you are both seeing the same thing.  You have to be ahead of the game if you are going to keep your head in the game.

[ROC]

Dantoo, that is a great point, and one to remember.

[Drano]

Originally posted by ROC
Dantoo, that is a great point, and one to remember.

Definitely. In the real world this would never happen of course but in the imperfect virtual world we inhabit in AH its unfortunately a product of everyone's constantly varying connection via the internet to the host. I'm sure that some day we'll all have super fast connections that would largely eliminate this but we're just not living in that world yet. Give it a few years and we'll all prolly be ridin the light and be a lot closer to real time than we are now.

Drano

[4XTCH]

Originally posted by Dantoo
You cannot know what the other guy is seeing.  The closer you are together and the faster you are manouvering the less likely you are both seeing the same thing.  You have to be ahead of the game if you are going to keep your head in the game.

Awesome quote there Dantoo<>
Ok .. I was duped... I really thought your tiff had the kill.. Only by looking at the 3 aspects of the fight can you determine who wins. Your, his and the logs.

4XTCH