Author Topic: A Thread for Nilsen  (Read 1524 times)

Offline Vulcan

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2007, 04:44:20 PM »
Seagoon why your god?

Why not one of the original gods from say ancient egyptian times (that predates christianity), or mayan gods and so on?

If you prove that it is possible for a god to exist why does it have to be christian defined god (and not gods)?

Offline Nilsen

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2007, 05:14:11 PM »
Seagoon...

Clearly what we view as evidence are very different. None of what you listed in either category is evidence in my book.

What you belive in is based on input from other people and books. If you had lived on an island all your life without access to the religion you have now you would not have had it. You may have had similar experiences but you would not have added those experiences to the things you had learned from books to form the belives you have now. Everything we do and experience in life forms us as people and if you take away key elements of it your persona will change too.

Now... go fly some and don't spend your spare time trying to convince or explain something to someone like me. It is rather hopeless until someone can find evidence. People in my life that i love with a far better chanse of succeding in that department has failed. :)

Offline Gunthr

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2007, 05:29:09 PM »
Quote
Hope that makes it clearer.

- SEAGOON


it does.  i never heard of this concept before.  it is actually an astounding idea, i think supported by science, that seems to point to God.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline midnight Target

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2007, 06:29:45 PM »
Sorry Seagoon, but the entropy argument don't fly. Entropy assumes a closed system. There are parts of the universe that are far from closed (the Earth for example), and assuming the entire Universe to be a closed system is a mighty stretch.  The warm coffee in the room could have been heated by a ray of sunlight through the window. The window built by those beings who evolved on that planet and built that room.;)

Offline eskimo2

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2007, 06:48:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Seagoon why your god?

Why not one of the original gods from say ancient egyptian times (that predates christianity), or mayan gods and so on?

If you prove that it is possible for a god to exist why does it have to be christian defined god (and not gods)?


It is interesting that the majority of people believe and follow the religion of their parents and society.

Offline lukster

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2007, 11:56:38 PM »
Many religions, especially Christianity, maintain belief that there are two realms (at least) that are separate from each other and that one of these, the spiritual realm, is undetectable from the viewpoint of the other, the physical. At least undetectable using only facilities inherent in that realm.

I agree with Seagoon that only by God's revelation can we sense the spiritual. There are many ways to explain man's need for belief in the supernatural. However, those who earnestly seek God find him in ways that cannot be understood except through acceptance of a spiritual realm. It's one of those things that must be experienced to be understood or believed. Much like understanding what color is, a man blind from birth cannot perceive it.

I read an interesting allegory recently. Belief in life after death is much like twins in the womb. One may have an unfounded belief that there exists something beyond their current environment. The other believes that what he is currently experiencing is all there is. When the first is born into a world of smiling parents and joy the latter feels only loss and tragedy at the disappearance and presumed end of his sibling. Soon, he too discovers his "reality" was not as he earlier perceived.

Offline Seagoon

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2007, 02:28:20 AM »
Hi MT, Dyna,

I think amongst other things we have a problem with definitions here when it comes to "closed" and "open" systems. Dynamite, let me go ahead and answer MTs objection and if that doesn't adequately respond to your objection, feel free to say so, and I'll try to respond again tomorrow. I'm on "baby time" at present, so I'm only up till the littleist 'un is done feeding.

Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Sorry Seagoon, but the entropy argument don't fly. Entropy assumes a closed system. There are parts of the universe that are far from closed (the Earth for example), and assuming the entire Universe to be a closed system is a mighty stretch.  The warm coffee in the room could have been heated by a ray of sunlight through the window. The window built by those beings who evolved on that planet and built that room.;)


MT when we're talking about Closed systems and particularly the second law of thermodynamics, we are actually talking about something that naturalists agree on. Entropy, or the Second Law of Thermodynamics is not a creation of Christian Apologists, its a universal law discovered in the 19th century and first formulated in its current form by Rudolph Clausius. It is today generally accepted even in the field of Quantum Mechanics. Indeed the brilliant Nuclear physicist Enrico Fermi wrote exstensively on the subject in his book "Thermodynamics." Simply put the Second Law states: "The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium."

So as far as that goes, I could simply respond if you don't like Entropy, then your beef is with the physicists, not me.

Also, when I write about the Universe being Open or Closed I am using terms that are generally accepted in philosophical discourse.

Naturalists (also known as materialists) have long affirmed that the Universe is a Closed System of Cause and Effect. This means that they believe that while there are things about the universe that may be seen as mysterious and complex, that is only because we do not yet (and in some cases may never be able to due to relations and complexities beyond our ability to comprehend) understand them. Despite these complexities the universe is essentially closed, it is not open to fundamentally reordering from the outside by a transcendent being or from the inside by self-transcendent or autonomous humans. This worldview rejects the miraculous, the spiritual, and the supernatural. Hence Sagan’s sweeping “Cosmos is all there is” commentary. David Jobling reflecting this worldview described the universe as “a continuity of space, time, and matter, held together, as it were from within…God is not ‘outside” time and space, nor does he stand apart from matter, communicating with the spiritual part of man.” This worldview, which is seen in the writings of modern atheistic philosophers like Dawkins and Dennet also implies determinism, but we can get to that later.

Against this “closed universe” (or closed box) worldview Christian philosophers like Francis Schaeffer and C.S. Lewis have maintained that the universe is an Open System of Cause and Effect. To quote James Sire from The Universe Next Door on the meaning of this phrase:

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“First, it signifies that the cosmos was not created to be chaotic. Isaiah states this magnificently “For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I have not spoken in secret, In a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, 'Seek Me in vain'; I, the LORD, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.” (Isaiah. 45:18-19)

The universe is orderly and God does not present us with confusion but with clarity. The nature of God's universe and God's character are, thus closely related. The world is as it is at least in part because God is as He is…. the fall qualifies this observation. Here it is sufficient to note that there is an orderliness, a regularity to the universe. We can expect the earth to turn so the sun will “rise” every day.

But another important notion is buried in this shorthand phrase. The system is open and that means it is not programmed. God is constantly involved in the unfolding pattern of the ongoing operation of the universe. And so are we human beings! The course of the creation is open to constant reordering by either. … Each action of each of us, each decision to pursue one course rather than another, changes or rather “produces” the future. … If the universe were not orderly, our decisions would have no effect. If the course of events were determined, our decisions would have no significance. So theism declares that the universe is orderly but not determined.


Hence the “open vs. closed box distinction.” Even in your example MT, entropy nor the closed system is not affected, the energy from the sun warms the cup, that is what we (and indeed thermodynamics) would expect. The sun sets and the cup becomes cold again. The cup never spontaneously regains its lost energy however, I don’t expect a cup I set down to suddenly reheat as the process of entropy reverses and the naturalist does not allow for a force from outside the system to miraculously reheat it. Humans are within the system, to the naturalist they are as much a part of the box as the coffee and they have no capacity to reverse the laws of the universe or fundamentally reprogram the system they are part of.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Furball

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2007, 03:26:20 AM »
I believe that todays religions, like the vast vast majority of religions/beliefs which have gone before it in the history of mankind, will be outdated before too long.

If this was a discussion 2,000 years ago, can you imagine how absurd you would be made to look if you argued the point of a single God to a Roman?

I saw a picture a few weeks ago, it was from a space probe (the name escapes me at the moment), when it reached the far reaches of the solar system, they turned the camera around to look towards the Sun.

Amongst the tiny glints of light was Earth...  amongst the 7 metre or so image, was a glint of light half a pixel in size, which is Earth.  It made me realise then just how small and insignificant our planet really is.
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
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Offline moot

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2007, 04:03:47 AM »
Seagoon, can you (as time allows) refute that religion is irrational, and therefore cannot be rationaly argued in any conclusive way?
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Offline Flame 2 the boy

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2007, 11:31:23 AM »
nice posts seagoon, i agree totally :aok

Offline midnight Target

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2007, 12:51:05 PM »
I'll grant the Universe to be a closed system, but this still proves nothing. If you are going to hang your hat on Entropy then you are using the hatrack of the 1st law... Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. A "Natural Law" that required no God yet explains a universe that has always been.

Offline Hazzer

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2007, 12:58:17 PM »
I'm an Athieist....wheres Richard Dwarkins when you need him;)
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Offline Seagoon

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2007, 09:37:21 PM »
Hi Vulcan,

Incidentally, I think I'll be taking Nilsen's advice and trying to get some flight time in, so my apologies to anyone I don't get a chance to respond to.

Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Seagoon why your god?

Why not one of the original gods from say ancient egyptian times (that predates christianity), or mayan gods and so on?

If you prove that it is possible for a god to exist why does it have to be christian defined god (and not gods)?


Ah, there's the rub with evidentialist apologetics (arguments for the existence of God that appeal to general revelation - i.e. nature, science, logic) even if you can prove that there is a God, the most you have generally proved is the existence of Aristotle's "First Mover." Hence when Antony Flew, the great atheist philosopher and debater, was finally convinced by years of arguments that there was a God, all he became was a deist and not a Christian.

But to answer your question, I could say that a careful examination of the evidence would eliminate many of the ancient or eastern "gods" from the running (for instance some religions have an impersonal god ultiamtely incapable of creating, others posit a god who used pre-existing material to shape the universe, others are obviously anthropomorphisms - "man writ large" and simply could not fit the bill for the awesome creator and sustainer of the universe, others are obviously written about as mythical from the very beginning, rather than being historical, the Upanishads are an example of this) but none of those are the reason I would argue for that the God who created the universe is the Triune God of the Bible.

I will freely admit that it wasn't via evidence in natural revelation that I was persuaded that "Yahweh, He is God!" (to quote the Israelites on Mt. Carmel after the "great debate" of 1 Kings 18) , it was actually being convinced that the witness of the New Testament to the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Christ was true. It wasn't evidence alone, obviously, evidence of itself will never convince anyone to believe anything much less the testimony of scripture. As B.B. Warfield put it in On Faith in its Psychological Aspects:

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Something more, then, is needed to produce belief, faith, besides the evidence which constitutes its ground. The evidence may be objectively sufficient, adequate, overwhelming. The subjective effect of belief, faith is not produced unless this evidence is also adapted to the mind, and to the present state of that mind, which is to be convinced. The mind, itself, therefore — and the varying states of the mind —have their parts to play in the production of belief, faith; and the effect which is so designated is not the mechanical result of the adduction of the evidence.


That something more was a supernatural work that the naturalist denies is possible because his worldview forbids it, but if God does exist, then nothing logically precludes this, in fact revelation requires this supernatural change of heart in order for true faith to occur.

Anyway, so there it is, I believe that the Creator was the God of the Bible because I believe the testimony of Jesus and the eyewitness evidence presented by his Apostles. All of my subsequent examination of the manuscript and historical evidence since has confirmed that belief (and please believe me I try to read as widely as possible on both sides of the issue), so my trust in the authority of that word has only been strengthened and increased. In fact I've found that if we were merely talking secular history, then the manuscript and internal evidence to the historicity of the events in the NT would be found to be overwhelming by any reasonably objective historian, the fact that supernatural events and monumental truth claims are made however impells men to seek reasons not to believe the testimony (that I also know from personal experience).

Anyway, my tiny braincell is overheating, I'll try to write more in a little while. In the meantime, I'm going to go let the N00bs totally pwn the rusty old man online.
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline lukster

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2007, 10:06:16 PM »
I'm rereading some of CS Lewis' works and reading The Problem of Pain tonight. I have greatly enjoyed both his fiction and nonfiction over the years. For insight and depth of thought he's hard to beat.

Offline Vulcan

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A Thread for Nilsen
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2007, 11:37:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
But to answer your question, I could say that a careful examination of the evidence would eliminate many of the ancient or eastern "gods" from the running (for instance some religions have an impersonal god ultiamtely incapable of creating, others posit a god who used pre-existing material to shape the universe, others are obviously anthropomorphisms - "man writ large" and simply could not fit the bill for the awesome creator and sustainer of the universe, others are obviously written about as mythical from the very beginning, rather than being historical, the Upanishads are an example of this) but none of those are the reason I would argue for that the God who created the universe is the Triune God of the Bible.


Interesting isn't it. Some religions don't require a god to create the universe, some go as far as to openly state they do not fully understand the universe (honesty in religion is such a rare thing) . Even more interesting is how some religions readily label other older religions as mythical despite the supernatural beliefs of their own religion.

But of course nearly every religion thinks it is the 'special one'. Some even go as far to actively discriminate against those that do not agree with their religion.