Author Topic: The surge has failed...already.  (Read 2647 times)

Offline Mickey1992

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The surge has failed...already.
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2007, 12:42:49 PM »
Reid is an idiot.  His approval rating is 19%.  I never understand how he continues to hold that office.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/will/427406,CST-EDT-GEO14.article

Offline Hap

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Re: The surge has failed...already.
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2007, 12:45:09 PM »
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Originally posted by Yeager These anti-war democrats really ought to try harder at being relevant and mainstream. [/B]


I agree!

Offline Thrawn

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The surge has failed...already.
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2007, 02:05:13 PM »
Yeager, I find it interesting that you don't debate whether or not the Democrats are right or wrong...whether or not the surge has failed.  You simply jump to ad hominem, and label them as defeatists.

Offline john9001

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The surge has failed...already.
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2007, 02:16:38 PM »
the surge hasn't even reached full strength yet, only 4 of the 5 brigades are in Iraq, to say to has failed before it starts is "defeatist".  The democrats need a "failure" in Iraq to win in 2008. If you repeat a lie often enough people will start believe you.

It's like when Cronkite called the Tet offensive a "victory" for the communists when it was a massive defeat for the north Vietnamese and total destruction of the viet cong.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2007, 03:20:45 PM »
Some of you have NO FREAKIN clue as to what is actually going on there.  In many former "Hot spots" the tribal leaders are working hand in hand with the US and Iraqi forces to stop the violence.

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2007, 03:54:40 PM »
The Democratic Congress is leaping at anything Anti-war or Anti-Bush, their polls show the public like them even less than the Republican Congress they replaced, and they've accomplished nothing this past 6 months.

The publics' opinion in 2002-2003 was in support of going into Iraq.  And yep, leadership has failed and screwed up by the numbers in the prosecution of post-war operations in Iraq.  Mistakes at every turn, and no way in the world they would ever admit to those mistakes or try to make corrections.

Most of the blame for Iraq lies on America.  I know Americans hate to hear that, but Congress, the Administration, and military Leadership from Disneyland on the Potomac are to blame for much of what has happened.
We went in a broke the country.  That's what soldiers do.  We break things.
We failed to secure the munitions that have been used against US and Iraqi forces these past 4+ years.  We failed to used enough troops in the first place (see secure munitions).  We fired 400,000 Iraqi soldiers, sailors and airmen when we took over, thus almost guaranteeing the formation of the Insurgency and the organized gangs that have plagued nation building efforts across Iraq (also see secure munition; these guys buried a lot of it pre-invasion).  
We pressured the Iraqi transitional government to come up with a Jiffy-Pop Constitution in less than a year that created a weak central government of compromises that...gosh, surprise surprise... has been unable to unite or secure the country.

Idealists in DC somehow thing that with freedom, democratic elections, and a lot of money, something beautiful will grow.  A very western and naive view of the Middle East, with no regard of cultures, religions, past hatreds, and different societies found there.  We'd have been better off just putting the old King of Iraq back on this throne, or another strong arm leader.  Or given them the time to come up with a form of government that would work for them.  What we did help create there (trying to mold Iraq in our idealistic image in a short time frame) is not working, and we are stuck with it now.  The fault in that is squarely on us as a nation.  


Leaving Iraq a mess that we created should not be an option.  As a nation we have a responsibility to Iraq and it's people.  We attacked them.

Then there is the strategic interests we have in the region..... oil.  I don't like that any more than most, but so long as our economy is tied to Middle East oil, we have an interest in keeping the lid on the pressure cooker that is the Middle East.   The Palestinian meltdown is going to spill over.  Iran and Syria will benefit from that.  The region is becoming more unstable.  Abandoning Iraq to whatever fates can only be the most nearsighted, self absorbed, unthinking maneuver the leaders of this country could come up with.  
If Iraq blows up, the fallout will most likely spill across the region, and that will take down the economies of the western powers with it.  

It's a mess.  Our dependence on oil ties us to that mess.  It sucks, but we can only blame our leadership (such as it is) and ourselves as a nation on getting ourselves into this mess.  Getting out of it will take a lot of time, lives, and cost.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 03:57:50 PM by tedrbr »

Offline RedTop

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The surge has failed...already.
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2007, 04:08:07 PM »
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Some of you have NO FREAKIN clue as to what is actually going on there.  


All that needs to be said right there.....Pefect Gun...thanks
Original Member and Former C.O. 71 sqd. RAF Eagles

Offline Viking

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The surge has failed...already.
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2007, 04:55:42 PM »
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Some of you have NO FREAKIN clue as to what is actually going on there.  In many former "Hot spots" the tribal leaders are working hand in hand with the US and Iraqi forces to stop the violence.


That's GREAT news Gunslinger! ... Why haven't these positive developments been publicized?

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2007, 05:04:05 PM »
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Originally posted by Viking
That's GREAT news Gunslinger! ... Why haven't these positive developments been publicized?

Working together and handshakes doesn't sell headlines. Besides, reporting "good" for most media outlets would mean being wrong about what they've written into their stories over the last 4 years in OP-ED fashion.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2007, 05:46:30 PM »
The US Armed Forces does have its own press corps, do they not? Have these good news been made public through say the Stars and Stripes?

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Stars and Stripes is a daily newspaper published for the U.S. military, DoD civilians, contractors, and their families. Unique among the many military publications, Stars and Stripes operates as a First Amendment newspaper, free of control and censorship. We have published continuously in Europe since 1942, where readers currently number around 80,000. We serve about 60,000 readers in the Pacific, where we have published a daily paper since 1945.*

Stars and Stripes maintains news bureaus in Europe, Pacific and the Middle East to provide first-hand reporting on events in those theaters. In addition to news and sports, our daily paper contains all the elements of the hometown paper our service members left behind, from "Dear Abby" to coupons, comics and crossword puzzles. In all, we publish five editions: Mideast, Europe, Japan, Korea and Okinawa.



How strange then that their headlines are not "Tribal leaders help US forces to stop violence” or anything similar. Instead their headlines are:

Forces in Iraq on alert after bombers destroy minarets of *****e shrine

Gates to press NATO on sending more troops to Afghanistan

Would-be car bomber treated for wounds, interrogated

Iraq report: Attacks against troops down, but casualties up

One pot plant could mean seven years in prison

Security increased on USFJ bases, but no reason is given


While none of them are particularly gloomy they do not exactly convey the spirit of optimism shown by Gunslinger. Why is that?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 05:53:44 PM by Viking »

Offline Ripsnort

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The surge has failed...already.
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2007, 05:56:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
The US Armed Forces does have its own press corps, do they not? Have these good news been made public through say the Stars and Stripes?




How strange then that their headlines are not "Tribal leaders help US forces to stop violence” or anything similar. Instead their headlines are:

Forces in Iraq on alert after bombers destroy minarets of *****e shrine

Gates to press NATO on sending more troops to Afghanistan

Would-be car bomber treated for wounds, interrogated

Iraq report: Attacks against troops down, but casualties up

One pot plant could mean seven years in prison

Security increased on USFJ bases, but no reason is given


While none of them are particularly gloomy they do not exactly convey the spirit of optimism shown by Gunslinger. Why is that?


Its a weekly publication. I'm quite confident it was one of the headlines at some time.

I'm nephew sends weekly emails as well. He states the same positive message as Gun whether you refuse to believe it or not, Viking.

Offline VOR

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The surge has failed...already.
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2007, 05:57:32 PM »
Nobody wants to read the same headlines over and over unless it's about some goofy strung out celebrity. It's an attention span issue and it drives the sale of news...and the products of their sponsors.

Dig around a bit and you'll find the occasional optimistic headline with a small story on page 8.

Offline 68ZooM

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« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2007, 06:02:31 PM »
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Originally posted by Sandman
Is 31% mainstream?

According to the latest poll, 67% disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation in Iraq.


Well its went down alittle, according to this poll

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Offline Viking

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The surge has failed...already.
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2007, 06:08:36 PM »
Ouch! This current news story (though not a headline) does not bode well for Gunslingers point of view:

 
Iraq’s dust can’t hide soldiers’ frustrations

The idea was for residents to see Iraqi forces working for the good of the neighborhood ... Instead, by noon, U.S. soldiers stood alone.



HILLAH, Iraq — It was noon in Askary, a neighborhood in the Babil provincial capital that the U.S. Army has tagged “non-compliant,” and a small group of U.S. troops stood all alone.

The Iraqi army, the Iraqi police and the Babil SWAT unit had all evaporated in Sunday’s scorching sun. Even the scores of kids, who just minutes before had swarmed the American troops begging for treats, were gone.

But the small team’s feelings of vulnerability at being left alone in the dusty street paled in comparison to their frustration at being abandoned slowly throughout the morning by their Iraqi counterparts during a mission called Operation Babylon Sweep.

Instead of coaching the Iraqis on interviewing suspects and collecting illegal weapons, the U.S. team watched Iraqi police let residents walk unimpeded through a cordon, Iraqi soldiers quit their house searches after about two blocks, and an Iraqi company commander take a mid- morning tea break in the shade.

Continued here: http://stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=46668


Why are the Stars and Stripes reporting these stories if things are really going well in Iraq? Are they traitors that strive to destroy US moral in spite of real events?

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2007, 06:40:37 PM »
Let see....  June....  Iraq......  temperatures of 120 to 135 degrees in the shade...... civilians, police, and Iraqi army (many still w/o power for their AC) all head indoors by noon time.....  US troops struck outside in the streets and in the sun.......

hmmm.......  

Sounds about right to me.  That's just how the locals usually deal with summer heat.  Operation or no operation.  

And yes, that includes Iraqi soldiers and police.... why stand in the sun in June, for a job you might get paid for, and might get killed doing, when the rich Americans are there to do it?  

Firing the existing Iraqi semi-professional Army in 2003 was a mistake, possibly one of the two or three greatest military/political blunders of the 21st century (so far, and a contender for a long time).


Star and Stripes and the Various Military Times papers are not cheer leading and propaganda machines for the Armed Forces.  Their writers are a bit above board compared to main stream journalism, considering their main market, but they too are often trying to be picked up the wires like AP.  So, there is some pandering to the way the news cycles are running.  Army Times and the Interceptor/Dragonskin controversy comes to mind.  

And most journalist come from schools where they all learn "If It Bleeds It Leads 101."
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 06:46:33 PM by tedrbr »