Can you stand another 109 thread?

[toonces3]

Hey all.

I'm totally new to the 109.  I've been reading alot on the history of the eastern front of WW2 and it got me all jazzed up to fly german and russian for a change.

Ok, so I'm gonna stick with german, and with the 109.  So far, in the MA, I've flown the G14 and (one sortie) the K4.  I like the G14 because it, simply, has killing power.  I usually take the gondolas and all that 20mm suits my style well because my aim sucks.  So, if I can land a few 20mm hits I can kill someone while, with 50 cal, I'm 'Mr. Assist'.

What I HATE about the 109 is the compression.  I'm used to the 190 where I can put the plane to 500 and not worry but the 109 is unrecoverable almost over 450 or so.  It's tough to b n z when 450 is a practical limit.  Plus, with the gondolas, you're really limiting your top end speed.  I find that they don't limit me in attack mode if Im high because I'm scrubbing speed anyway, but once I'm on the deck, they're a horrible liability if I need to run...

which leads me to another problem.  While Soda's page calls the G14 a 'rocket sled' I don't find that it accelerates for crap.  I thought I could get away from a typhy on deck tonight, and got my butt handed to me by some scrub no less, because I just couldn't get my 'e' up fast enough.

OK, so the point of the thread is:

Yes I've read Soda's page a few times, but what's the deal with the 109?  If I want to get proficient in the MA with a 109, which is the one to play with, and what loadout do you prefer?  
I realize the gondolas are a touchy issue, and I'd like to hear comments on what the pros carry.

Thanks guys, and if this has been beat to death already, you can just link me instead.

See ya,
Toonces

[NOT]

G2 or G6. stay away from the gondies in the G14, there only good for buff huntin, IMO. they limit maneuverability otherwise. dont expect to BnZ to well in them, but they TnB quite well. just stick with one till you get it down, then experiment with others.




NOT

[Spatula]

First off I think Soda's pages refers the 109 G10 as the 'rocket sled', not the G14. A long while back the G10 was renamed to the K4. Nevermind the reasons why for now (you cans search this thread for the discussions), but what you need to know is the G10 is the K4, the K4 is the G10 - exactly the same except for the 30mm cannon. The G10 had a 20/30mm option, the K4 only has the 30mm option.

Also note, the G14, is not the G10. Nor is the G14 'better' (eg faster, more powerful) than the K4, even if it has a bigger number. Think of the G14 as a slightly heavier G2 or G6 with better WEP power and has gondola option.

And as for gondolas. DONT take em, unless your buff hunting. The G14 with 30mm spinner and 2 Gondies makes a good intercepter due to its good climb rate and heavy hitting power. They really sap your speed, acceleration, climb, and turn rates. For a fighter engagement, the difference the firepower makes up, is more than lost in performance.

Why 109s? Im not a full-time 109 geek, but i have spent several tours in them getting to 'know my enemy' as such. The later models dont make good turn-fighters, the earlier models dont have impressive climb rates compared to the spit16s or Ki84s etc etc. The early models are best used as close-in scrappers where there good relative turn rates and good acceleration makes them good knife-fighters. The later models its best to use them as E-Fighters (and its in this role the 109 has always excelled in - compared to its time/year contemporaries). They don't make good BnZ fighters as they have bad high-speed performance, and gun packages are harder to use in these high-speed snap-shots.  Use it as an E fighter. Keep the fights in the vertical, and keep them heading upwards. Works well against most a/c except Spit16s and Ki84s.

If you want to fly 109s. Fly the G2 as a starter aircraft. Then move to the G14, then move into the K4. Unless you like the turning style of fighting, then the F4 is your kitty. The K4's 30mm 'tater-gun' does take LOTS of getting used to. But practice will make perfect. And one hit is enough to shred most a/c. Also dont use the MGs only fire the tatergun.

109s aint as "EZ-Mode" to fly as say a spit 16 is, but its much more of a challenge and much much much more rewarding.

[Xasthur]

I don't find the gondolas on the G-14 to be too bad at all.

I've had decent success with them. You just need to keep an eye on what's around you and not get suckered into a bad position.

It will still turn with the gondolas and they enable a powerful snap-shot.

All in all, the 3 x 20mm G-14 is a viable alternative for those unable to hit with the MK 108 cannon.

-Check out this thread-

The G-14 and K4 are both excellent turners when you know how to fly them, so take your time with them and just be aware that it's not a 'point and shoot' plane, it requires careful throttle  and control surface control.

Most of the time, if I'm coming in high or i'm in a tight turning fight I'm rarely above 50% throttle. I use shorts bursts of power in climbs to get the upper hand, and ease off in flat-turns.

Flaps are your friend in the 109, get aquainted with them.



In my opinion, the 109 K-4 gives you the best surviabilty of all of the Luftwaffe rides, without restricting you to a BnZ roll. You can get right down and dirty in a K4 and still have fun with it.

The G2 and G6 are both excellent fun, too.

[Nilsen]

If there is one plane that really makes roping people easy its the later 109s!

R O P E

Learn what the word means and practise it to perfection and learn what the vertical power can do for you and you become a real killa in them!

I used to be a die hard A8 pilot, but the last 2 tours ive expurrimented alot with the g14 and im in love. Its not an easy mode plane, but neither is the A8 but thats what draws me to those planes i guess.

My other tips are:

Practise aiming that 30mm and leave the godies at home.

DONT use tracers even if its hard in the beginning.

DONT fire the MGs, they only give your position away.. when that 30mm lands its already too late for the other guy to react. I often land without having fired a single mg round.

The view is limited, but in time you learn to guesstimate were he has gone when you "lose" him. When that happens he knows you are there so feel free to try snapshots with the mgs but save your cannon.

[Knegel]

Hi,

the 109īs dont get into compression!!

Thats a misunderstanding, they only get a heavy elevator, this you can overcome by dissabling the "combat trim" and trimming up by hand.

If the "combat trim"(auto trim) is enabled the game engine trim the plane more down as faster it get, as result the 109 end in a un-recoverable dive.

If you trim to neutral, the plane will move alone, without the help of the stick.

In R/L its not easy to create a elevator behaviour that provide a exact and smooth behaviour at slow speed and good manouverability at highspeed at same time. The Spitfire for example was known to have a rather to light elevator at slow to medium speeds, also the 190 could get stalled by easy at slow to medium speed.
The 109 elevator was very good at slow to medium speed and at highspeed the pilot could trim the complete horizontal stabilisator(most other WWII planes couldnt get trimmed at highspeed, cause only the elevator got used to trim, so the pilot had to trim against the windstream).

If you wear the gunpods on the G14 you need to fly more like in a P51 or 190D, but as you say the hit probability is much better and so the gun power is dewasting.

I like the G6 with gunpods, it still turn suprising good, but you shouldnt get below the enemy.

btw, if you wanna turn tight in a 109G or K, you need to reduce power(at least dissable WEP), in a downward turn i often cut the throttle full down, while the plane dont stop to accelerate, then i can turn inside most other planes. With the gunpods i often can get a nice snapshot kill then.

Greetings,

Knegel

[Stampf]

Another A8 stick here, but as the majority of my squad prefers the 109 over the 190, I have been logging more seat time in the Mess.  

Fly the F in base defense and furball.

Learn the G2.

Never take Gondies unless you are purpose upping for buffs.

If you like the G 14, go offline with the K 4 and learn the spud gun.  It's a lethal airplane.

Fight your 109 in the verticle at all times possible, watch your ammo and practice, practice, practice.  A very rewarding plane when you get proficient in it.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Xasthur
I don't find the gondolas on the G-14 to be too bad at all.

Not so... The gondolas add massive amounts of weight, even after the ammo is expended. You can check this with the E6B. They add massive drag as well. Back just before the 109s were redone I was flying in Fire Over Malta and I and another wingman took gondolas, nobody else in our flight did. They throttled WAAAAY back and still walked away from us (we were at full throttle). We couldn't catch up to them and eventually became a separate flight of 2. We couldn't climb anywhere near them, catch up to them, anything.

Gondies = BAD. If you're going anywhere with any fighters don't take them.

It's far far better to takes 1x20mm than 3x20mm, because the performance loss in 109s isn't worth the firepower.

With the 1x20mm you might go RTB because of ammo, but you'll RTB. With gondies you won't run out but you'll die.

For starters I suggest the 109G-2, not only because it's slightly more nimble than later versions, but because it has a 200-round option on its 20mm nose gun. Many of us are still waiting for the same option on the G-6 and G-14. The extra ammo helps when you're learning to conserve your ammo

[Kweassa]

It depends.

 If you're confident that you can manage yourself well enough to stay out of ugly furballs and maintain strict engagement discipline, then the tradeoff for some speed and climb for almost triple the firepower is sometimes not that bad.

 I know a few guys who've had considerable success by flying with gunpods. Twoface immediately comes to mind, though he's a very old hand way back in AH1, and doesn't fly anymore.

[Viking]

If you're going to fly a G-2 or G-6 then you already have decided to throw away any speed advantage and would be better off in a 109F-4. The F dominates all other 109's in knife fights. If you want to just B&Z then you should get the K-4. There is no reason (except for novelty) for flying any of the 109G's as long as the F and K are available.

[Xasthur]

Conflicting views here, for sure.

Perhaps Krusty and Viking are right....

I tend to agree with Kweassa on this one, if you pay attention the firepower is worth the trade-off.

Still turns better than the 190s with gondolas on, but with comparable fire-power.

I've not noticed a fatal loss in climb with gondolas on either.

I always usually take gondolas on the G2... turns well and has great fire-power.

You just need to know when to disengage.

[Lusche]

Interestingly, the G-2 with gondolas is very close to the C205 in regards to climb rate & maximum speed, yet still turns better.

[Nilsen]

There is not one single answer to what is best regarding the gunpod issue. It all comes down to how you like to fly and fight.

[Krusty]

According to gonzoville, http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109g2&p2=c205 the 109g2 should have a noticable advantage over the 205 in speed and climb. Climb rate should be pegged at the "4" in the climb meter until 10k. I don't think I've pegged the climb meter with gondies on the G-2, but I have to go and do some testing tonight.

All I know is that compared to "without them," they are a terrible burden. Just try flying with a group of non-gondie planes when you have 'em, and you will regret having 'em.

I disagree with Viking's comment, though. All 109s can turn fairly well. Sure, the E-4 turns the tightest, and the F-4 turns best out of the "post BOB" set. However, all after the F still turn fairly close to each other, and not much wider than the F itself. 29 extra feet radius between F-4 and G2, and only 43 extra feet radius between F-4 and G-6. There are reasons to take the G-2, the G-14, and the K-4. I will agree that the only reason to take the G-6 is for novelty reasons

[Viking]

The difference is that the F-4 can out turn the Spit16 and La-7. The G-2 cannot (all things being equal). The E-4 is just too underpowered, mostly because of the short 3 minute WEP. You'd be better off in a Zeke.

I'm not saying the G-2 is a bad plane, it is not. Even the G-6 is a great fighter. I'm just saying the F-4/K-4 is better at what they do in the MA.