Corsair Turning Ability in AH

[mtnman]

Pg 44- under "Manuever Flaps"

"The wing flaps have been designed for possible use in manuevering.  The flaps may be used to increase lift and thereby decrease the radius of turns at low speeds.  The flaps are also useful in increasing the drag of the airplane so that it may be quickly decelerated to the optimum speed for a short radius turn.  In general, flap deflections of 20 degrees or less will be the most helpful in improving maneuverability.  Therefore, a setting of 20 degrees has been established as the "maneuver flap" condition."

Are there any planes other than maybe the bombers in AH that CAN'T out-turn a Spit14?

Direct hit Steve!  I didn't mean to imply that you would be popular if you managed to A- live, and B-kill the other guy, lol.  Obviously, a pony can't kill a spit.  Neither can a hog.  Something must be screwy with the game, or flight model, or your computer is better than mine, or my connection is getting me killed, or you cheated, right!  NO WAY can you beat my TnB plane!

You guys should try flying the corsair with full flaps deployed for the duration of your fight.  See how long you can hold your E.  If you're dropping them, and leaving them down, or assuming the other guy is, that may explain your confusion.  Dropping them and leaving them down creates lots of drag, and kills your E.  You get the most turn advantage at the lower settings.  The higher settings may help briefly, but in the end the spit or whatever will eat you alive.  Generally, I can kill him before that happens, especially if the spit is WEPing to try to get around me quicker.

Maybe Hitech should neuter planes that hurt peoples feelings.  I can't believe those WW2 designers!  How dare they design something that worked!  Didn't they realize they practically lived in the stone age?  How rude...

MtnMan

[Knegel]

Hi,

i think you dont know the fakts, eh??

You should use this comparison page a bit more before you write your hero storys, that the pilot make the winner etc.

http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php

Turnradius no flaps:

F4U-1:  674ft
F4U-1D: 702ft
F4U-4:  691ft
SpitIX: 632ft
Spit14: 629ft
A6M5 : 423ft
F6F-5: 649ft
109G6: 648ft
P38J: 817ft
190A5: 787ft

Turnradius full flaps:

F4U-1:  425ft (37% smaler radius)  
F4U-1D:  427ft (39% smaler radius)  
F4U-4:  428ft  (38% smaler radius)  
SpitIx: 433ft   (31,5% smaler radius)
Spit14: 509ft  (29% smaler radius)
A6M5 : 342ft  (29% smaler radius)
F6F-5: 465ft  (28,5% smaler radius)
109G6: 481ft (26% smaler radius)
P38J: 598ft  (27% smaler radius) This plane has folwer flaps.
190A5: 548ft (30,5% smaler radius) this is also strange

And dont forget, the Spit14 not only have a much better powerload than the early F4U´s and still a better one than the F4U-4.

The turnradius gain of the F4U´s is so much outstanding, thats what i call a joke. The F4U-flaps wasnt something special, the F4U wasnt designed to be a turnfighter at all and it dont got used as such.

Since the F4U-4 can employ the combat flaps at higher speeds than most other planes in fact it can outturn even the A6M5 at a wide range of speed.

Unfortunately we cant see the turn rate with full flaps in that comparison, but the F4U´s are also rather good while that. With full flaps they hoover around like a helicoper.

Actually all planes behave strange with full flaps, but the F4U´s are most outstanding. Most planes had enough torque to make stallspeed flights with full power and full flaps impossible, while our planes turn nice tight, good controllable, they also make nice tight loops while that. VERY strange that is, and most strange is the F4U airframe in AH.

Greetings,

Knegel

[Saxman]

Check the pilot's manual scans F4UDOA posted sometime back. The amount of lift generated by the F4U's flaps is quite remarkable (based on comparisons in stall speed at full and no flaps). In fact, at only one or two notches, the F4U's flaps reduce the aircraft's stall speed by the same percentage as the P-51's do at FULL flaps (again, this is taken from pilot's manuals).

Then consider these stall speeds are conservative, at best, for safety purposes, and are conditions that would be likely exceeded by pilots in combat (such as, as mentioned in other threads, the "speed limt" at which the main gear could be deployed as airbrakes).

[Red Tail 444]

The instant turn rate is excellent in the corsair, and ovet 300 knots, she turns very well.

She's not designed to turn with zekes, and wasn't designed to shoot down allied aircraft, either. that being said, the only aircraft I don;t have supreme confidence fighting is the spit 5 and F4F, and the hurricane 4 cannon model.

I fly the F4u exclusively, and while still only an average stick at best, know enough secrets to outmanuver many planes with a smaller turn radius.

Like all rides, it's about flying close to the edge, and like anotherposter said, regardles of doing everything right, if you push too close to the edge, you'll get into a very bad situation.

I had a 109k4 by the gonads in my F4U-4 during an extended 1-1, and snap rolled it into an orchard. never saw it coming, and couldn't get out of it. I don;t know if it's overmodeled or not, but I can assure you that it's probably the least forgiving ride in the game.

[Knegel]

Originally posted by Saxman
Check the pilot's manual scans F4UDOA posted sometime back. The amount of lift generated by the F4U's flaps is quite remarkable (based on comparisons in stall speed at full and no flaps). In fact, at only one or two notches, the F4U's flaps reduce the aircraft's stall speed by the same percentage as the P-51's do at FULL flaps (again, this is taken from pilot's manuals).

Also the P51 flaps on two notches reduce the stallspeed to almost the same like the P51 with full flaps!!
Thats what i did explain before, full flaps dont bring a lift gain, but a drag gain.

Originally posted by Saxman
Then consider these stall speeds are conservative, at best, for safety purposes, and are conditions that would be likely exceeded by pilots in combat (such as, as mentioned in other threads, the "speed limt" at which the main gear could be deployed as airbrakes).  

If the the stallspeeds are conservative, they are conservative for all planes, so there is nothing to gain.
Actually the stall speeds in a horizontal flight are rather credible, but the full power behaviour at stall speed and the behaviour while turning fully banked at stallspeed with full flaps is very strange.
Since the stallspeed of the F4U isnt below that of other planes in this group i realy doubt the tunrperformence with full flaps.  

Greetings,

Knegel

[bozon]

F4u truly remarkable quality in AH is its stability at stall speeds, not its potential turn ability.

[Saxman]

Hope F4UDOA doesn't mind me borrowing his scan, but:



Check the chart down in the bottom-right.

F4U stall speed clean and power on is 84kts. Power on full flaps reduces the F4U's stall speed to 66kts. If all flaps generated was an increase in drag the stall speed would be the same REGARDLESS.

As a better comparison, take a look at the power off settings which range from clean to full flaps:

Clean - 87kts
20 - 79kts
30 - 77
50 - 75

The biggest increase in lift is between clean and 20 degrees (which fits within the behavior stated by mtnman. The F4U receives its greatest boost from one or two notches of flaps). However the lift generated STILL continues to increase as the flaps continue to deploy. So these flaps do NOT just generate extra drag beyond the second notch.

bozon: I disagree. I've found it takes a more experienced stick to keep the F4U stable at stall speeds than other aircraft and someone new to the game won't have that control, which is why you can pretty quickly tell an experienced Hog driver from a newbie. She can, does, and WILL depart without warning, and as I said I've been flying the thing almost exclusively in here for a year and a half, and she still gets away from me time to time.

[mtnman]

Knegel, I'm familiar with the comparison page you mention.  I don't wish to just use one source for my information when making an educated judgement.

If you think the plane makes the winner, and not the pilot, that would be an easy fix.  Lets just set up a system where the correct plane will always win based on plane type, rather than pilot.  So we could say that when a spit sees an F4U, it will automatically win, because it just should.  We could even throw in an "odds" factor- when the spit sees the F4U, the pilots of each plane could see some dice spin in the corner, and have their fate decided that way.  That takes the pilot out of the equation.

Maybe another option would be to make all the planes fly identically, but with different skins so we could tell which ones were zekes and which were B24's.  That way it's all fair.

The charts you mention are based on planes flying with a set amount of flaps, over a set, flat course.  If not, they would be meaningless.  If one plane is turning flat and the others aren't, there would be no sense in comparing them.

Get in a fight, drop your flaps, and turn flat.  See how long you last.  Your more successful F4U pilots are not doing things that way.  Maybe that's cheating?

Those comparison's aren't taking one heck of a lot of variables into play.  They're useful as a basic starting point, but that's about it.  What if one plane is faster?  Managing throttle?  Using the verticle?  What if one pilot is a better shot, and makes a quick kill where if he'd missed he would have eventually lost?  Heaven forbid one pilot is actually better, or smarter, or faster thinking, or just plain luckier than the other!

Flat out, NOBODY is fighting in the MA under the conditions those test's were conducted.  If you (or anyone else) is using those charts in an effort to predict the outcome of a fight, I'd recommend a serious reconsideration.

So far, I've seen your opinion, and a list of comparisons conducted showing how things currently are.  I've seen literature from the manual, and from other internet sources describing what I feel I see in the game.  Can you produce anything that shows that what we see in the game is flawed as you say?  Or do we take your word for it?  Is it just plain unfair that one plane would benefit from flaps more than another?  What does a corsair "really" do under the circumstances questioned?  What does a spit, hurri, 109, or anything else do?  

Honestly- I want to fly the most realistic version of the planes possible.  If you can show the F4U should be changed, then damn-it I want it changed.  I'll fly it no matter how it behaves in the game, because I like it.  If you are saying it should be changed "just because", well, I can't side with you there.

MtnMan

[Gooss]

Great.  Just what we need, more Hog dweebs.  

Shush.  

Let 'em fly cannon planes.

HONK!
Gooss

P.S.  How do you do the nasty little thing that gets on their six?

[Knegel]

Originally posted by mtnman

Honestly- I want to fly the most realistic version of the planes possible.  If you can show the F4U should be changed, then damn-it I want it changed.  I'll fly it no matter how it behaves in the game, because I like it.  If you are saying it should be changed "just because", well, I can't side with you there.

MtnMan

Hi,

if you dont want to agree to what i say, ok, but you shouldnt ask me to teach you. There are heaps of free informations regarding manouvering with flaps and flight physics in general in the net, go out and take a look.

http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamics1/Lift/Min_Radius.html

Here you can get an idea what flaps in general do, they simply lower the stall speed, but not the max lift that much.

You say the flaps provide more lift, but thats not true, they mainly lower the speed where a rather similar amount of lift is available. Further more the drag increase much with full flaps, resulting in a worse thrust/drag relation, so in less effective thrust, what is needed to stay fast with a high bankangle.  
Further more, full power fligths at stall speed are not good possible due to the extreme torque effects of a so powerfull engine, which cant get overcome due to bad working alerons at this speed.
As result the turn radius must rather increase than decrease, when flying with full flaps.

There are comparisons, made by US WWII pilots, nowhere you cant read about a extraordinary turn performence of the F4U, actually it got rated as the most bad turning US fighter. If the flaps would have been a so big advantage, someone would have written about it, like we know it from the P38 and its fowlerflaps, which increase the wingarea and are a real bringer regarding the turnperformence.

Greetings,

Knegel

[mtnman]

The claims "I" made about the flaps causing more lift were quotes from the manual.  Who wrote those?

I agree with you by the way.  Full flaps are a huge drag.  That's why the more successful F4U pilots are not putting them all the way down and leaving them there for a long time.  If things get to that point, the F4U is wallowing and an easy target.  At least the ones I've flown are.

I get the most benefit with 10-20 degrees, as the manual says I should.

I'll drop more in an effort to stay out of the trees, but it comes with a large drag "fee", so if things are that bad I'm in trouble already.

I don't want you to teach me anything.  I've read everything I can find about the F4U and flying in general, and have done that over 25 years.  I have never read anything that describes the F4U flying the way you say it should.  Problems, yes, but as I've quoted to you already.  And then Saxman showed you the same thing.

Agree to disagree?  Sure.

Show Hitech that they have it wrong.  I see no reason they wouldn't want to correct it.  Or that anyone else wouldn't want it corrected.

MtnMan

[EagleDNY]

Interesting that the scan of that manual has a warning about deploying flaps over 200 knots.  I wonder if that is just for the F4U-1 - it seems like the AH2 F4U jocks can pop the flaps out at much higher speeds than that.  

I tend to only fly the F4Us on our squad nights, but I do note the weird "anti-gravity drive" effect that seems to kick on when you pop the flaps, and I don't see that on anything else I fly.  I have to wonder if Knegel isn't right about the flight model calculating flaps as covering the entire wing as opposed to the actual area.  

I know it's a subjective observation, but the F4Us just seem weird that way to me.  

EagleDNY
$.02

[Patches1]

What is an anti-gravity dive when loaded with 2x1ks and 8 rox, and about 50% fuel over target?

Just curious....

[Patches1]

I don't use flaps or dive brakes when dropping ords....I do plan ahead a bit, though....

[WOOD1]

You F4U pilots probably already know this but there is a neat F4U training film at  http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/F4U.html  It runs about 22 minutes, it's in color with sound and available for real media or win media player.

AKwoodee