How to fly the P51

[dtango]

Another Pony Dweeb in the making !  Outstanding!   This coming from a fellow Pony Dweeb of course.  Lots of good responses here in this thread.  I especially liked Spatula's write up on his website.

As strange as it sounds I was really torn about responding to this topic.  Why?  Allow me to be obtuse for a moment and give my personal commentary
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Tango's Three Laws of Air Combat:[list=1]

• There are no absolutes in air combat; it's all relative
• You can't defy aerodynamics
• The way we fly reflects the way we think

The reason I am torn is because of  #1 and #3.  When someone asks a question like "what are the best ways" of using a particular aircraft you get a lot of advice like what's been mentioned.  The trouble is the advice is really all relative.  It's relative to energy states.  It's relative to aircraft capability.  It's relative to airspeeds.  It's relative to weight.  It's relative to separation distances.  The list goes on.

The problem is when we take this advice as absolutes.  You see it all the time in different ways in statements like "the Mustang is a B&Z fighter", "I only turnfight", "it's an energy fighter, not a stall fighter", blah blah blah.  E.g. - when is a fighter an energy fighter vs. an angles fighter?  Actually the whole categorization that it's an energy fighter vs. an angles fighter is off to begin with.  It's really when should you use energy tactics vs. angles tactics?  The answer to that question is all relative to a given situation.

This leads to Law #3.  The way we fly reflects the way we think.  If we think in absolute terms then we fly our aircraft in absolute terms.  If we think in relative terms then we fly our aircraft in relative terms.  I know, quite esoteric.  It has big implications though.  So if we take the advice on aircraft as absolute then we fly it in a way that absolutely paints ourselves into a box for flying that airplane .  Free your mind!  Remember the 1st law, it's all relative!

I'm done ranting!

With all that being said as a HUGE HUGE caveat to what I'm about to post, here is short list I put together years ago for the 412th.  It is meant to be a fundamental guide as only a starting point to learning to fight in the Mustang.  Some of it has already been stated but reworded in a more pithy (I hope!) manner.

===============================================

Brief P-51D Guide for New Mustang Pilots: ("Top 10 P-51D Survival Tips")
[list=1]

• Stay above the fight.[/b] Convert your speed to altitude whenever possible to stay above the fight.  This doesn't mean living in the stratosphere being so high above bogies that you are useless. The idea is to stay just out of reach from the bogies below. This will let you dance on everyone else's heads at will so learn to use the high perch.
  
  
  • Speed is life.[/b]  If you're not above the fight then stay fast.   Speed gives you maneuvering options and separation options.  A rule of thumb is to be AT LEAST at 260 mph indicated airspeed (white needle)or above. The more speed you have the better. This is crucial to remember because the P-51 accelerates slowly relative to other aircraft in AH! Remember this!  One of the P-51's characteristics to use is it's low parasite drag which means it is one of the faster planes in AH.  Use this to your advantage.
    
    
    • Don't get low and slow.[/b]  The quickest way to die in the P-51 is to end up low and slow. Avoid being in this situation at all cost. The typical pattern is trying to get that last kill and ending up in a close-in knife fight. There are times for this but 75% of the time you should avoid this self-defeating pattern.
      
      
      • Develop situational awareness and exit the fight earlier vs. later. [/b] Always be scanning the skies around you to assess the situation. Learn to judge the energy states of friendly and enemy planes. Fight the urge to get that one last kill especially when the odds are quickly changing against your favor. If you're getting outnumbered then exit. If you're at moderate to low energy states, exit the fight. Your patience will pay out huge dividends in helping you live to come back and get more kills.
        
        
        • Conserve your energy.[/b]  Use maximum performance turns and maneuvers SPARINGLY and ONLY AS NECESSARY. Avoid prolonged maneuvering with a bandit! This leads easily to becoming low and slow. A rule of thumb is make no more than 1-2 turns with a bogey, or turning through no more than 90 degrees on a single pass. In the offensive use high yo-yo's or zoom-climb-and-pitchback maneuvers to stay in the rear quarter of the bogey. At other times try and use gentle low-g maneuvers (2-3 g's). Throwing the P-51 around the sky like a Spitfire or N1K2-J will invite some       accelerated stalls so learn to be gentler with your control inputs. There IS a time and place for maximum performance maneuvers, especially in the evasive or defensive situation. Also learning when to employ max performance maneuvers in the offensive for the P-51 takes time to develop a feel for knowing when to trade that altitude or speed for angles for a shot. However, the majority of the time will probably call for low-g, or energy conserving maneuvers.
          
          
          • Turn in the vertical.[/b]  Somewhat of a corellary to the above- instead of flat turns, use vertical upward turns such as an immelmans or oblique immelmans (oblique turns in the vertical). This helps you to efficiently use your energy as well as get a gravity assist with your turns to improve your turn performance. When tracking a bogey from above keep your nose either pointed up or level with the horizon vs. pointed down until you're ready to make the attack or unless you need to build up speed. This will help you maximize your energy as well as control your speed so that you will be at the optimal energy state for offensive or defensive maneuvers.
            
            
            • Take snapshots.[/b]  Don't try and stay close on a bandit for more than 4-5 seconds unless you are completely out of danger. Use slashing attacks where you have 2-4 seconds to make snapshots or very brief tracking shots. Any longer and you will end up in prolonged maneuvering which will bleed your energy quickly. Get good at high deflection gunnery. Typical snapshot opportunities occur at moderate to high deflection angles so being able to down the enemy at high deflections is important. Practice and learn to hit targets at various deflections helping you become lethal in using slashing attacks vs. attacks requiring prolonged maneuver.
              
              
              • Use teamwork.[/b]  Wing-up with someone. The P-51 isn't the easiest to learn to get out of jam by yourself nor is it easily suited for single plane sorties (though you can use it this way). The P-51 really shines as two wingman work in close concert with each other against enemies. A pair of P-51's can wreak havoc on enemy numbers of up to at least 3-4 times their numerical strength with the right conditions and using good wingman tactics.
                
                
                • Avoid Head-On's.[/b]  Don't go for head-ons and avoid them. .50 caliber machine guns vs. 20mm cannons is a poor matchup. The cannon armed planes will win the head-on 9 out of 10 times. A good number of the aircraft in AH are armed with cannons (or 8 .50's! as in the case of the P-47) so the odds are against you winning a head-on while flying a P-51.
                  
                  
                  • Have altitude insurance.[/b]  Leave altitude to work with so that you have options to get the heck out of dodge when you get into trouble. A good portion of evasive maneuvers for the P-51 can be summed up simply as spoiling the enemy's shot as much as possible as you try and pick up speed to get separation and use the P-51's speed to run out of danger. Usually you need altitude below you to accomplish this.
                    
                  Cheers!
                  
                  Tango, XO
                  412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[evenhaim]

bahh i thought we werent converting this month:D

[dtango]

I am compelled to bring good news to the heathen .

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[evenhaim]

lol

[Spatula]

Tango. RE: The relativity of combat - Nicely put!

Most people seem to always talk in absolutes, like when in position X, the magic move will be Y. I guess its people who are on the steep learning curve want to believe there are absolute rules or magic moves which will always win the day without fail. If somehow they can learn these static moves then they'll instantly become experten or a vet. They are disappointed when they learn the answers tend to be more complicated than their original questions.

The answer to almost all questions really is... "It depends"...

[CajunAce]

Bump.  Good info for a new pilot like myself.

[A8TOOL]

Great find, Very helpful!   

Spatula's site is also very informative.

If you want even more good stuff to read and watch visit Murder's site. I don't have the link to it tho. Google 479th raiders I believe

[wulf31]

 Nice find Cajun...I've been learning this game mostly in a 51

[Masherbrum]

I've always lived by one rule, regardless of the plane chosen and that is "Fly it like you stole it."

I've turn fought (no angles BS) in 152's, 51's, 190F8's, etc and have fun shooting down some and getting shot down some.    When you limit yourself, you've already lost the fight.   

I also realize I'm not that great at this game.   

[VonMessa]

I've tried to see what a P51 is capable of. 

But of course, I don't fly them......

I try to observe from my own cockpit, but they are going too fast usually.

I didn't realize (from my own experiences against them), that they were so versatile.

I thought you were supposed to climb to 20k, come in for a failed and awkward pass on some unsuspecting dope, miss, try once more with a HO shot, then run like hell back to momma when the guy you gave up angles to (on the HO attempt) gets on your six.

Who woulda thunk?       

[ink]

ask Steve, the guys the best there is in that crate.

[VonMessa]

Steve IS very good in a pony.  I have also never seen him (or any other muppet) run from a fair fight. 

Most folks I find in a Pony (not all, so don't everyone get all fired up) do exactly as I described above.

I don't even try to bother engaging P51's anymore, because 99% of the time (in my experience) all they do is run like hell, either to friends or to ack.  When called out for it, there is always the "I was out of ammo" excuse ( or some other excuse)

For a plane that is capable of what is described in this thread, I find it twice as lame for folk to run in it as much as they do.

As far as the guys who catch crap for "picking" in a P51?     

I have no problem with that.  I have found the secret to not being picked..........  shhhhhhhh......

here it is...............

LOOK AROUND ONCE IN A WHILE !!!!!!

If you expect a 1vs1 in the MA you are lying to yourself.  If a pony picks you, it's your own fault.

[A8TOOL]

Might be a good sight for the 51. I was trying to work on one that fit it and came up with a few. I used a film Steve recently posted killing C47's to try and match up where he was aiming to hit them.

If you load this sight into your 51 and play the film back in slo-mo you'll find I came pretty close.

My problems with the 51 has always been how the 50's drop when you add any back pressure on the stick. HTC has changed the way the 50's act 3 times that I know of. AKDG had a couple of posts about it and in talking to him he was pretty upset about having to relearn the guns every time they do that. All he flies is the 51....not sure he's around anymore but definitely one of the very best 51 sticks out there.

The film
http://www.mediafire.com/?jnumwjmya3z



You can save this sight right from here. Just right click and choose save as. then find it on your hard drive and copy and paste right into your sights folder no problem.

[Steve]

Lots of wise people gave great info in this thread. FWIW, I disagree with a couple of the "top ten survival tips"

The first one, I feel strongly about in disagreement :"Stay above the fight"

If you are above the fight, the highest or nearly highest guy, you are going to garner a lot of attention from the planes below you, and especially to those entering the area from high. A high pony is considered a real threat.  This means that you will spend more time defensive than a lower plane, ponies included. I participate in a fight from lower alts than most ponies for this reason. That, and usually I'm too lazy to grab much past even 8k.  A defensive pony will have to burn E in evasives and you won't be getting a lot of kills dodging high zoomers.

 I tell this to people who fly with me. I "get small"( a bit different than Steve Martin's version). In other words, I have no problem lingering in a fight with high cons around because there are other friendlies above me, making bigger threats and also better targets. A 4k pony appears to be much less a threat than three 8k spixteens. So as the high guys enter a fight, they see other targets of opportunity/threats, and they usually leave me alone. As an additional deterrent, I stay fast enough that killing me would be a PITA. The zoomers are looking for easy kills. Even a very low pony is a big problem to kill if he has speed. On the occasion where a high plane singles me out and persists, I use my speed to pull him away for a 1v1. I don't mind this at all.


Another one I disagree with some:    "Don't get low and slow."

Hey, get low and slow if you feel like it. With sharp SA, you can do just fine. Sure a low and slow pony is going to look cherry and thus get some attention but this also means you will be getting in fights and having fun. With even 2k of alt you can build enough speed to be hard to kill/ have plenty of E to fight. Finally, a deck pony may be at a disadvantage, but you can still outfly the other guy! You are going to die plenty... but you'll learn invaluable things along the way.


Here's the three most important things for me:

1) Sharpen your SA. 

Most guys are looking for an easy kill. A pony with any speed who is also aware of the threats around him is going to be a real pain to kill. Most people will not bother with you if you are not easy to  bag.

2) Learn to shoot.

Long gun solutions burn precious E and drop SA to dangerous levels. "tunnel vision".  While everyone will tell you the  .50's are lazers (they are), to be an assassin you need to get that quick killing burst in by putting bullets on the target at convergence. If you are saddlling up in a furball, you are an inefficient killer and will undoubtedly be a victim of the pick. Get the shot, kill the bad guy, reset your SA and get back to the hunt quickly.


3) Be aggressive:

Too often I see a pony who is trying to run just fly straight ahead til he is shot down.(or trying some feeble negative E manuever.... or that stupid, near stick stir, up and down elevator dodge.  Try this on a vet and you are DEAD)
If you are getting run down, turn around and fight the guy, make him kill you. You'll be surprised at how often you catch people off guard.  Remember, they are expecting a toothless runstang. Go after them. You may still die, but you were going to anyway. Even if you get in this fight and can't turn the tables, there's a good chance that your aggression will cause your opponent to make some mistake that will allow you to slip away.
If they are too close to simply reverse 180 and fight then: Everyone who is running you down is going to have the throttle cobbed; they see a runstang in front of them. A simple  barrol roll or scissor with the throttle closed some will often cause these guys to wildly over shoot as they are afraid to slow down and let you get away. Force the overshoot then decide whether to fight or simply duck out and leave.

If all you want to do is survive... go ahead and stay above the fight, always in fear of the higher opponent. Do this, and you are just another runstang pilot.
 There's no reason why you can't get down and dirty in the 51. Keep a little speed and you will find success and have some fun in the process.  You'll die plenty, like I do, but you'll see plenty of action.   




 

[CajunAce]

Steve,

  Thanks so much!  You've obliviously watched my brilliant noobieness in action! "(or trying some feeble negative E manuever.... or that stupid, near stick stir, up and down elevator dodge.  Try this on a vet and you are DEAD)[/size] " 

  I do have a question.  You mentioned barrel rolls and scissors with low/cut throttle to push an overshoot on a Con coming in fast but what if they are matching speed and coming from low?  Are there some other effective counters when I have someone on my 6 and I cant shake them?