Author Topic: Slipstream's a joke  (Read 718 times)

Offline SgtPappy

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Slipstream's a joke
« on: August 11, 2007, 07:38:32 AM »
Okay so I just felt like having a nice discussion with my buddies down at www.us-aircraft.com .

And one of the members there decides to question most of what I've learned here at the BB. Now, he's probably a good guy who's just trying to teach me but honestly, he stated that the P-38L would be outzoomed by the P-51D and that the statement 'P-51's in a zoom at very very low speeds would fall off violently to one side due to slipstream' was purely a joke. I have no clue HOW you can even question these things, but I'm really confused as to what's right and what's wrong.

Check out the thread
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline Murdr

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Slipstream's a joke
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2007, 10:15:22 AM »
Send pasoleati and p51mustang to AH aircraft and vehicles forum.  They will make a nice snack for someone.

Forget p-factor for a second.  As you transition through stall, lift force is no longer dominate force contributing to roll and yaw stability, and torque will become more dominate.  So if you're in the 51, you could throttle back to reduce torque, but then you'll only decelerate faster.  The 38 on the other hand with zero net torque could firewall until it runs completely out of momentum and remain stable in yaw and roll.  P-factor just adds to that effect on the pony.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 10:26:35 AM by Murdr »

Offline Squire

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Slipstream's a joke
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2007, 06:42:51 PM »
"he stated that the P-38L would be outzoomed by the P-51D"

I can see that in the context of the P-51D starting a zoom climb with higher energy from a faster, pre compressing dive. That part I can buy. At equal energy states (level start, max speeds) its going to come down to initial energy and thrust-weight and how long they can hang on the prop, in an absolute zoom climb to alt contest.

I can see the P-38L prop hanging a bit longer from the counter rotating props perhaps. That coupled with the P-38Ls better climb rate at lower alts, I think I would bet on the P-38L winning a zoom climb below 20k vs a P-51D. Course the Mustang is faster at some alt regimes, and thus may actually beat a P-38L depending on where the contest started, just by virtue of a faster start and high alt performance. 1000 feet vs 25,000 feet makes a difference.

Its an interesting debate, because the P-51D is faster as it starts the zoom, but has a poorer climb rate, vs the slightly slower P-38L with a better climb rate, and counter-r props.

...and of course, fuel loads and fuel types being equal, ect.

Anybody done any tests in AH?
Warloc
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Offline SgtPappy

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Slipstream's a joke
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2007, 07:13:41 PM »
Widewing has done such tests.
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline Squire

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Slipstream's a joke
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2007, 07:23:11 PM »
Just for laughs, quick test.

50 fuel, no ord.

Sea level with full WEP at max speeds to a vert climb zoom.

P-51D: 5300 ft.
P-38L: 5100 ft.
Spit 14: 5400 ft.

All pretty close, as they are in the @340-360 at sea level range and have good initial climbs.

Im sure the #s could be improved for all three (im not a test pilot), but it indicates how close they are, your mileage will vary.  

...its not like we are comparing a P-40B to a F4U-4 or anything.
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Offline SgtPappy

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Slipstream's a joke
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2007, 07:33:29 PM »
Wow that was incredibly quick.

If you people are interested, us-aircraft.com has got a lot of great people who are willing to learn a lot. Come by and visit.. I also showed them our HTC site too, so maybe they will come by and learn a little something.

Thanks, Murdr, I feel confident that the knowledge I have isn't false.

Edit: They're now stating that the P-51 dives faster than the P-38 since the P-51 is faster in level flight. The Mustang is aerodynamic but I think weight's still going to be a deciding factor, but I'm not sure. I think I'll test it if I find the time.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 07:36:45 PM by SgtPappy »
I am a Spitdweeb

"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of earth... Put out my hand and touched the face of God." -J.G. Magee Jr.

Offline TalonX

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aerodynamics
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2007, 08:11:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SgtPappy


Edit: They're now stating that the P-51 dives faster than the P-38 since the P-51 is faster in level flight. The Mustang is aerodynamic but I think weight's still going to be a deciding factor, but I'm not sure. I think I'll test it if I find the time.


It's not just weight...  It's weight, drag, ballistic coefficient, blah blah blah.....    Not to mention the 38 will be totally compressed while the P51 zooms away smiling........
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Offline Ghastly

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Slipstream's a joke
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2007, 10:54:07 AM »
Quote
The Mustang is aerodynamic


So is the P38 - so much so in fact that one of the primary dangers in flying it was entering a dive and accelerating into compression.   Hence the dive flaps on later models.

"Curse your sudden (but inevitable!) betrayal!"
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Offline dedalos

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Slipstream's a joke
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2007, 11:06:38 AM »
Well, fighters outclime bombers. There :D
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.