Author Topic: School fees  (Read 1497 times)

storch

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« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2007, 03:50:30 PM »
yup a quick glance at my real estate taxes confirms that is definitely not free to me.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2007, 04:00:06 PM »
It is a simple matter here of taking the education budget for a given year and divide that by the number of students.  Last year the figure was closing on $19,000 per student.

Ridiculous.

I say schools here should be privatised in entirety.  I cannot get anyone to explain to me why a top notch school costs me $15,000 a year and the government pathetic excuse for schools cost us taxpayers (yes we do pay tax here, just not income taxes) $19,000 per student.

I pay for both.

..and yes, I'm RANTING.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

storch

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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2007, 04:02:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
It is a simple matter here of taking the education budget for a given year and divide that by the number of students.  Last year the figure was closing on $19,000 per student.

Ridiculous.

I say schools here should be privatised in entirety.  I cannot get anyone to explain to me why a top notch school costs me $15,000 a year and the government pathetic excuse for schools cost us taxpayers (yes we do pay tax here, just not income taxes) $19,000 per student.

I pay for both.

..and yes, I'm RANTING.
as well you should.  it's an outrage.

Online Maverick

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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2007, 05:26:48 PM »
Laz, Storch. Kudos to you both for cherry picking a detail and turning it into something it was not posted as or implied. IIRC there is no tuition charged to a student or their family for their kids to enroll and attend public school, hence the term "free" education given "freely" to the student by the "public" through the government. Please note I never said there was no cost associated for it, same as I didn't say there was no cost for the military, the roads or internet.
:rolleyes:

Congratulations on totally missing the point.
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Offline 1K3

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« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2007, 05:55:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Ouch curval!  that is a lot...  I am feeling a little of the pain since I am putting my grand daughter through catholic school...  we have the worst public schools in the world in the US...  


Ever heard of "Magnet" schools in California?  It's like sending your kids to Private school at no cost.  Magnets are very competitive btw.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2007, 07:09:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
It is a simple matter here of taking the education budget for a given year and divide that by the number of students.  Last year the figure was closing on $19,000 per student.

Ridiculous.

I say schools here should be privatised in entirety.  I cannot get anyone to explain to me why a top notch school costs me $15,000 a year and the government pathetic excuse for schools cost us taxpayers (yes we do pay tax here, just not income taxes) $19,000 per student.

I pay for both.

..and yes, I'm RANTING.


Doesn’t Bermuda have one of the highest costs of living in the world?
It should cost more to pay people to work in such an expensive place; you can’t expect people to live in their cars.

As far as the discrepancy between public and private school costs.
1. The main cost of running a school is staff salaries.  Generally private and Catholic school teachers make less than public school teachers.  Heck, I even make less than some local public school bus drivers.  Public school teachers usually have better benefits.  Public schools often pay significantly higher salaries for higher education of their teachers.

2. Public schools are required to provide special education services.  Special education lowers the student to teacher ratio, ups the paper work and red tape and is generally very expensive.  SPED equipment such as ramps also boosts costs.  My Catholic school has almost no SPED services.  My old public school had a huge SPED staff.

3. Laws are written so that public schools often have to pay top dollar for services or supplies.  Private and Catholic schools often have more opportunity to shop around.

4.  Private and Catholic have much better luck receiving private donations and fundraising.  Wealthy alumni often remember their private and Catholic schools but forget about their public schools; generally private and Catholic school alumni are more well-to-do.  My school makes a bundle from bingo twice a week.  A parent recently donated $30,000 worth of servers to our school; another parent volunteers as our network technician so we don’t have to pay someone for that job.  These are just a few examples. Good luck finding these kinds of opportunities for public schools.

5. Bussing may or may not be an additional public school cost.

6. Laws are written so that public schools have to complete much more paper work and deal with more red tape; forced inefficiency.

Are you ready for the main reason why your school and my school are “top notch”?
It’s not the school.  It’s not the teachers.  It’s not the budget.  It’s not even the red tape forced upon public schools.
It’s the demographics; it’s you.   It’s easy to teach kids who have a big head start and who behave.  It’s difficult to teach children who are way behind and don’t know how to behave.

You and the other parents at your school are more involved in your children’s lives and education (mostly).  You and the other parents at your school typically have received a higher education and place a higher value on education.  “Bad seeds” in Catholic and private schools are kicked out.  Public schools don’t have that option.
Quite simply: your children’s schoolmates typically are better students from “better” families.

Is that worth the price?
If you have money left to eat it probably is.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2007, 07:14:50 PM »
P.S.

I also pay taxes toward my local public schools.  It doesn’t bother me a bit.  
They also happen to be great schools. The high school had 100% graduation rate with last year’s class (I believe).  The vast majority of students go onto college.  My public schools rival in performance of many private schools in every respect.  

Why do they do so well?  
I live in Mayberry.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2007, 07:58:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
Doesn’t Bermuda have one of the highest costs of living in the world?
It should cost more to pay people to work in such an expensive place; you can’t expect people to live in their cars.


Yes we do.

It does cost more to pay people.  Alot more.  It's a big part of why the cost of living is so high.

I don't expect people to live in their cars, but some unfortuntely do.  I have to say that I've seen quite a few in your country though too.  That is the ugly side of any capitalist country.

The sad thing is that we have the 2nd highest GDP per capita and yet we still have a terrible education system.  It doesn't make sense.  We have a bunch of people on the payroll and nothing to show for it.
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2007, 08:10:06 PM »
I hear what you are saying though Eskimo, don't get me wrong.  I just advocate a more privatised approach.  I guess it is the accountant in me but it would appear that government could privatise the schools and pay the $15,000 per average child for them to attend.  That is an annual savings of $4,000 PER STUDENT.  The special needs and behaviour problem children should be able to be taken care of with that savings and some additional funding perhaps, but nowhere close to the 19,000 per student we see now.

There will always be a cost, but frankly I want a return on my investment.  

I want a whole pile of smart kids.
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Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2007, 08:57:24 PM »
Do you have any idea how expensive special education kids can be?  My first year teaching first grade I had a student who had downs.  He had a full time aid, assigned to help him only.  He also received a big chunk of the first grade special education teacher’s time.  He took more of my time than any other student as well.  He lived two blocks from school; he had his own bus.  Yep, a short bus would pick up only him and drive him two blocks.  My third year I had a student with MD, same deal.  These kids are paper work through the roof and they can be a huge distraction to the regular education.  Each year I had more kids with less significant learning disabilities, receiving services, in my class than we have now in our entire school of 440 kids.  Financially, these kids are 500# anchors in canoes and you are not allowed to drop them.  Then there’s the severe behavior issue kids:  Once again I had more severe behavior issue kids in my public school class than we have now in our entire school of 440 kids.  Public schools have to accept these kids; private and Catholic schools do not.  

By the beginning of first grade at my Catholic school, most kids can read.  At my old public school, in the beginning of first grade most kids could not identify most letters; they didn’t have 20% of the literary skills of first graders at my school now.  That has a huge impact on performance.  You can’t compare Yugos and Fiats to Porsches and Mercedes.

You are looking at this like an accountant.  A good accountant/financial advisor might advise an applesauce company to toss out their bad apples and make sure that they don’t buy any more.  Public schools are required to mix in the bad apples.  Private and Catholic schools pretty much get good apples only and can toss out bad ones at will.  You can’t compare education to any business.  Nothing personal, but accountant's advice is a big part of the problem that public schools are in.

If the government privatized the public schools, but also placed the same requirements on them that they do to public schools now, the results would be pretty similar.  If they required all private and Catholic schools to accept all students through subsidies and deal with the same BS they throw at public schools, they would pretty much destroy any advantage that private and Catholic schools now enjoy.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 08:59:48 PM by eskimo2 »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2007, 09:54:54 AM »
eskimo... the reasons you give for catholic schools being better and cheaper may or may not be true.   They may even be only partially true but...

The fact remains that public schools are running wild on cost and salary and producing terrible results.   Only one in 900 teachers is ever fired in kalifornia once they pass probation.   Certainly... there are more than that who are worthless or harmful.

All cities have transit in kalifornia we don't need the school too or... they need to contract out for it...  

Special ed.   It needs to be defined.   some should not even be in school... any school.    They should never drag down the others either.   If they have rudimentary IQ then they should be taught rudimentary things   They are never going to be office workers or accountants.   Special ed may be a huge waste.

All I can tell you is that my grand daughter will not be a part of the horrible system of public schools with it's state mandated "programs"... I want a say in what my school offers and I want results and I don't want the people who have my kid for most of their waking lives pointing a finger at me when they fail at teaching.  I don't want to go to a school and see all the kids running around and screaming like wild animals.

even if I lived in mayberry with good public schools... I might opt for the catholic school because it would still be better in that it would concentrate on what schools should do.... teach...

curval... it is the same here... we pay for public schools at 11 grand a year per student but if we want our kids to not be idiots we have to take em out and pay 5 grand a year for em to get a real education.

the collapse of the teachers union would be the best thing that could happen to education.

lazs

Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2007, 12:09:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Yes we do.

It does cost more to pay people.  Alot more.  It's a big part of why the cost of living is so high.

I don't expect people to live in their cars, but some unfortuntely do.  I have to say that I've seen quite a few in your country though too.  That is the ugly side of any capitalist country.

The sad thing is that we have the 2nd highest GDP per capita and yet we still have a terrible education system.  It doesn't make sense.  We have a bunch of people on the payroll and nothing to show for it.


I don't understand then how your govt keep their jobs?  

Our public system has its moments but is generally an excellent way to be educated. Here private schools are generally used for High School students, but catholic schools (which both charge like wounded bulls) are available for new school entrants but often don't continue into secondary school educations.
I've got no worries about sending my two sons into the public system

 Tronsky
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2007, 12:15:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by -tronski-
I don't understand then how your govt keep their jobs?  


I don't understand how they keep their jobs either....well, actually that's not true, I do, but that is the subject for another thread which would require me to write pages and pages of rantings.

No time.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2007, 09:22:36 AM »
please start one curval..  I think it would be interesting.

lazs

Offline Curval

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« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2007, 10:26:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
please start one curval..  I think it would be interesting.

lazs


It would?  I thought you don't care what happens on an insignificant disney-like island?

:)

It might change your impression of me as a liberal Euro though...I think I'd probably sound a whole lot like you in it.

:O
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain