Author Topic: Al Qaeda lost  (Read 3243 times)

Offline Viking

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« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2007, 04:08:27 PM »
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Originally posted by Tango
I find it interesting that Human Rights Watch considered the gasing of the Kurds genocide, as well as the rest of the world, but you consdier it an act of war that was justifiable.


Well, the HRW also call the Israel vs. Palestinians a “creeping genocide”. People use the word so much that it has almost lost its meaning. If you google for “genocide in Iraq”, of the first 10 hits will be 4 links to something about Saddam and the Kurds, and 6 links to something about America committing genocide in Iraq or some other nonsense. Silly isn’t it?

The “rest of the world” you say … hmm … name ONE country that officially considers the chemical attack on Halabja a “genocide”. I’ll start by naming one that don’t: The United States of America. The USA didn’t even recognize that it had happened until the late ‘90s, blaming the Iranians instead.

If you think killing 5000 people (the highest estimate of the civilian casualties in Halabja) in a war zone is the same as the systematic extermination of 6 million Jews … I mean, what can I say to that? :huh



Quote
Originally posted by Tango
As for the Holocaust, it was one of the, if not THE most, disgraceful acts of evil ever commited. I know that and have known that, and I find it offensive that you make it sound like what was done the Kurds was justified.


Well if you don’t think using indiscriminate but legal weapons against a military target in a populated area is justified as was done in Halabja (500-5000 dead), Hiroshima (90,000-140,000 dead), Nagasaki (40,000-75,000 dead), Tokyo (80,000-100,000 dead), Berlin and every other major German city (300,000 civilians killed and 780,000 wounded, 7,500,000 made homeless) … then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Or are you going to be demanding we drag WWII vets to the gallows next?



Quote
Originally posted by Tango
ANY dictator that commits genocide needs to be taken out of power. Peacfully or with force. If the people of Europe in 1938 had stood up to Hitler, millions of Jews may have been saved. Instaed many of them chose to look the other way. Pretty much the same way alot of them did with Iraq and now Iran.


Why 1938? Let’s just say that the people of Europe stood up to Hitler a lot earlier than the people of America, and in fact when the Nazis started gassing the Jews we were at war with Germany … America was not. Britain and France declared war on Germany in 1939 … America waited until Germany declared war on her in December 1941.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2007, 04:50:44 PM »
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Originally posted by Viking

Why 1938? Let’s just say that the people of Europe stood up to Hitler a lot earlier than the people of America, and in fact when the Nazis started gassing the Jews we were at war with Germany … America was not. Britain and France declared war on Germany in 1939 … America waited until Germany declared war on her in December 1941.


You euro's have been killing each other for hundreds of years and the USA wanted to stay out of it this time , but the USA was dragged into it, so the USA went to europe and kicked bellybutton and ended the war.

when germany invaded norway they captured all ports and major cities on the first day, two months later norway surrendered and then 15,000 norwegians volunteered to join the german SS. Yeah, you really "stood up to hitler".

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #92 on: September 27, 2007, 05:32:28 PM »
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Let’s just say that the people of Europe stood up to Hitler a lot earlier than the people of America,


Why should we have stood up to Hitler? It wasn't our fight until Hitler declared war on America.
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In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2007, 06:01:04 PM »
Well boys, it's easy enough to make accusations that the president "lied" to us.  Nancy Pelosi and others threatened to start impeachment proceedings against Bush during the last congressional elections, because they thought it would play well in Peoria.

And it did, to a certain extent, but now that she is in power Pelosi has backed off of that threat because, when push comes to shove, she would have to prove the accusations.  That would be problematic, for nearly every intelligence organization in the western world believed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.  What would you do, indict the man for believing what his own intelligence agency those of our long-time allies told him was going on in Iraq?

If so, then the heads of every intelligency agency that supplied the governments of the west with this faulty information should roll.

You can disagree with Bush's war policy, if you must, but is making mistakes during war an impeachable offense?  I think not, else the government would have to fire every general involved in the conflict.

It appears, from many of the criticisms aimed at the war policy, and the constant references to Iraq being a "quagmire", that Osama Ben Laden is right about us;  Americans no longer have the backbone for a sustained conflict.  By way of comparison, consider this:  25,000 Americans lost their lives during the Revolutionary War, or roughly one percent of the population.  Our forces have suffered 4,000 casualties in Iraq.  That's approximately 0.000013 of our population.  Of that number, nearly 30% were the result of accidents unrelated to actual combat.  

For those who believe that establishing a viable democratic government in Iraq is taking too long, consider this:  the time that elapsed between the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the establishment of a stable government under the Constitution was eleven years.  

We are too impatient, wanting instant results and a swift resolution to knotty and complex problems.  Some things simply cannot be solved in a year or two.

As Thomas Friedman of the New York Times said, after visiting the mass graves of Saddam's victims, the presence of wmds was no longer necessary to convince him that the overthrow of Saddam was justified.

I, for one agree with that, and will never apologize for taking him down.




Offline Tango

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« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2007, 07:07:27 PM »
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
As for the second part, what possible justification could their be for going around toppling dictators?


If you believe that then I guess you think we never should have gone to war with Hitler.
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Offline VOR

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« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2007, 07:11:44 PM »
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Originally posted by Tango
If you believe that then I guess you think we never should have gone to war with Hitler.


Hitler declared war on the United States. We didn't go to war with him as a way of proving our moral superiority or because "he needed killin" although those concepts certainly helped sell alot of war bonds.

Offline Tango

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« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2007, 08:10:45 PM »
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Originally posted by VOR
Hitler declared war on the United States. We didn't go to war with him as a way of proving our moral superiority or because "he needed killin" although those concepts certainly helped sell alot of war bonds.


HOWEVER he was seen as the biggest threat to the world and we put more resources into taking him out BEFORE finishing the war with Japan [who attacked us and got us into the war]. Thank God that we didn't have as many liberals back then or libertarians.
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Offline VOR

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« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2007, 08:41:16 PM »
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Originally posted by Tango
HOWEVER he was seen as the biggest threat to the world and we put more resources into taking him out BEFORE finishing the war with Japan [who attacked us and got us into the war]. Thank God that we didn't have as many liberals back then or libertarians.


However? No, there is no however. The US would likely have left him alone if not for honoring his alliance with Japan and declaring war on our country. We were quite content to sit back and mind our own military business (and let Europe handle Europe's problems) until then. That's a popular libertarian concept, by the way. ;) Of course, you could argue that via the lend-lease we were already invested in the war in Europe before DEC 7, but our investment was more financial than ideological at that point when you get down to brass tacks. The proof of our collective disinterest is in our lack of preparation to fight.

I doubt either a liberal or a liberatrian would have any qualms about engaging any country that formally declares and prosecutes a war against our nation the way Germany did. To think otherwise is actually pretty stupid especially when you consider the balance of US political party power during the early to mid 1940's. Since you're obviously a very intelligent and well-informed kid of guy I'm sure you already knew that, so I am assuming this was just a test to see if I knew, too. How did I do?

Offline Dago

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« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2007, 09:02:47 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I know you daydream about me Dago... just remember to clean up when you're done.


Keep your gay tendencies to yourself.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2007, 10:22:58 AM »
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Originally posted by john9001
You euro's have been killing each other for hundreds of years and the USA wanted to stay out of it this time , but the USA was dragged into it, so the USA went to europe and kicked bellybutton and ended the war.

when germany invaded norway they captured all ports and major cities on the first day, two months later norway surrendered and then 15,000 norwegians volunteered to join the german SS. Yeah, you really "stood up to hitler".


Norway never surrendered. The government and royal family continued the war from London. As the war progressed the Norweigan government used the proceeds from Nortraship (a company set up in England that controlled our free merchant ships – who btw. transported a quarter of all goods and war materials from the US to the UK) to buy planes and ships for the free Norwegians to fight with. By the end of the war Norway had bought hundreds of Spitfires and ships. In fact during the allied landings in Normandy one of the 24 warships lost on D-Day was the Norwegian destroyer KNM “Svenner”. She was one of 60 Norwegian ships that took part in the operation. Above them RNoAF Squadrons 331 and 332 provided cover in their Spitfires (we actually have a Norwegian skin for the Spit16 in AHII ! :)).

As for the Norwegians that joined the SS to fight the Russians. Yes, that was rather common at that time since the “Reds” were considered a big threat by many and German propaganda exploited this very well. However, they were hardly alone; many non-Germans fought for the Germans in their misguided belief that the Russians were the greater threat. Alonside SS “Wiking” and the other SS volunteer corps they also established a “Britisches Freikorps” of British volunteers … and even an “Amerikanisches Freikorps” :aok


Some Americans even made it pretty far up in the ranks of the Waffen-SS considering they joined after Germany went to war:


Hstuf (Captain). Josef Awender, a medical doctor in the “Frundsberg” born in Philadelphia in 1913.

Ustuf (2nd Lieutenant). Robert Beimes, a signal officer in the “Hitler Jugend” born in San Francisco in 1919, whose father was a translator in the SD.

Ustuf. Dr. Hans Eckert, born in Buffalo, NY in 1917 and assigned to the SS hospital at Dachau in November 1944. (Nice … an American SS “doctor” in a death camp :aok)

Ostubaf (Lt Colonel) . Viktor Fehsenfeld, born in Elk Rapids, Michigan in 1884 and an administrative officer in the SS-WVHA.

Hstuf. Franz Stark, born in St. Louis in 1901 and assigned to the SD.

Hstuf. Eldon Walli, born in New York City in 1913 in the SS-Kriegsberichter Abteilung (war reporters).

Hstuf. Paul Winckler-Theede, born in New York City in 1912 and who was a military judge in the “Das Reich” division.



Even as late as 1944 Americans were still defecting to Germany and volunteering for the SS. Even a USAAF P-38 pilot defected:

“Second Lieutenant Martin James Monti (born 1910 in St Louis of an Italian-Swiss father and German mother) went AWOL Oct 1944, travelled from Karachi to Naples (through Cairo and Tripoli) where he stole a F-4 or F-5 photographic reconnaissance aircraft (photo recon version of the P-38) and flew to Milan. There he surrendered, or rather defected, to the Germans and worked as a propaganda broadcaster (as Martin Wiethaupt) before entering the Waffen-SS as a SS-Untersturmführer in SS-Standarte Kurt Eggers. At the end of the war he went south to Italy where he surrendered to US forces (still wearing his SS uniform) claiming that he had been given the uniform by partisans. He was charged with desertion and sentenced to 15 years hard labour. This sentence was soon commuted and Monti rejoined the US Air Corps, but in 1948 he was discharged and picked up by the FBI. He was now charged with treason and sentenced to 25 years the following year. He was paroled in 1960.”



So running away from home and joining the SS seems to be one of those things kids thought was cool back then. ;)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 10:26:54 AM by Viking »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #100 on: September 28, 2007, 10:31:58 AM »
sooo.. you are comparing the 1/1000th of a percent of german-Americans who joined the SS with the masses of norweigans who joined the german army?

What would the two ratios look like I wonder?

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Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #101 on: September 28, 2007, 11:59:25 AM »
I don't think anyone should be slagging off the Norwegian contribution to the war effort. The fact there were a few 'Quislings' shouldn't cloud the reality.

In any case, none of this is relevant to the original discussion, which is about Iraq. I cannot provide many references, so feel free to ignore it.
 
The original comments that the US is fighting Al Qaeda is true. It is also true they were defeated, in part because the US army had the support of many of the Sunni tribal leaders in the area. Quite simply because Al Qaeda overplayed their hand and tried to Talibanise the Sunni areas. The tribes do not like outsiders telling them what to do. That include Americans.

Here's a reference: http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=82&sid=1247160

That's fine as far as it goes but Iraq was never about defeating Al Qaeda or even provoking a situation where Al Qaeda could be defeated. Even without it, Iraq is still a mess and the conflict between the Sunni and the Shia remains the issue.

To be frank, I see a lot of wishful thinking on the part of some of you.  The situation is coming to an end game for the US. It simply cannot go on indefinitely. In Vietnam, most people did their year and went home. Now some military personnel are on their third tour in Iraq, not even mentioning Afghanistan. Just how long can that continue? How long do you think soldiers will put up with being back to Iraq every six months for the forseeable future.  That as much as anything is why some resolution is needed.

Whatever happens, if the US pulls out without leaving a stable Iraq. The reasons are well rehearsed. To the right, it was the media, the Democrats, Al Qaeda, Iran and everybody who failed to believe in the war. To the left, it was, Bush, Cheney, Halliburton, the neo cons, etc etc.

None of this is particularly helpful to the people out there getting killed.

Offline Getback

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« Reply #102 on: September 28, 2007, 12:06:47 PM »
Uh, we never went to war over WMDs. We went because Sadam was violating UN sanctions repeatedly, even to the point of shooting at our planes. Bush et al, made a terrible mistake bringing up WMDs. However, as I understand it, they did have those weapons. We gave Iraq those weapons to fight Iran (not our friend either). Unfortunately, he used them on his own people.

I don't like seeing our soldiers hurt and killed. I am so proud of them and the great job they're doing.

Now Bush is so far from favorite president it isn't funny. Didn't care for his dad either and sure hope Jeb doesn't run. I'm a staunch conservative btw.

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Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #103 on: September 28, 2007, 04:25:31 PM »
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Originally posted by Tango
Post a link please.


Here's a story about how a small-time loser Jordanian became a rockstar after the Bush administration started yammering on about the dangers of "Al Qaeda Iraq". Which BTW didn't exist in Iraq before the war, so in reality AMZ and his paid Al Qaeda "followers" are new to those Sunni areas and are not liked for that reason alone... on top of the fact they were formed by a fat kid from Jordan that Sunni tribal leaders didn't respect and considered a metrosexual.

Al Qaeda being kicked out of Iraq is little more than the Sunni tribal leaders cleaning house of a trouble making distraction inserted into their lands by a fat kid from Jordan who was only there thanks to the war, and had lots of $$ to pay "followers".  Al Qaeda didn't have a home in Iraq before the war, and neither the Sunnis (backed by the Saudis) or Shea (Iran) have any interest in sharing power with them anytime soon, they have each other to worry about.

Besides that, kicking out Al Qaeda insured that there was one less question about who was attacking Sunnis in those areas, and who needed to be paid back.  

http://www.macleans.ca/world/global/article.jsp?content=20071001_110054_110054&page=4

"The American role in the promotion of the terrorist organization is not some mad conspiracy theory, but a well-documented attempt by the U.S. government to demonize the insurgency and make it appear to be the central front in the war on terror..."

"... evil foreign terrorists led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a chubby Jordanian freelance terrorist, were setting upon the popular U.S. Army. AMZ, as the U.S. Army jauntily called him, existed, but he was a minor figure unlikely to get much of a following on his own in Iraq. Jordanians are not greatly respected by Sunni tribal Iraqis, who tend to view them as the metrosexuals of the Middle East. ..."

"The ploy backfired. As AMZ (he was killed in June 2006) got more and more airtime, he gained more and more legitimacy, money and volunteers..... Thanks to the Americans, al-Qaeda in Iraq became the Greenpeace of the jihadi world."

Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #104 on: September 28, 2007, 05:29:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Getback
Uh, we never went to war over WMDs. We went because Sadam was violating UN sanctions repeatedly, even to the point of shooting at our planes. Bush et al, made a terrible mistake bringing up WMDs. However, as I understand it, they did have those weapons. We gave Iraq those weapons to fight Iran (not our friend either). Unfortunately, he used them on his own people.

I don't like seeing our soldiers hurt and killed. I am so proud of them and the great job they're doing.

Now Bush is so far from favorite president it isn't funny. Didn't care for his dad either and sure hope Jeb doesn't run. I'm a staunch conservative btw.


Per a "secret memo" leaked in Spain, that the Bush people don't dispute:

The story about the urgency to get rid of Saddam, turns out to be a fairy tail.

Saddam was willing to leave Iraq and live in exile before 1 shot was fired, and Bush knew it, but rejected the idea because Saddam would allegedly take "information" about the WMDs that were never found. Bush was even told that there would be many opportunities to assassinate Saddam after he left, but in his stellar judgment, Bush decided war was the better option.

Bush also opined back then his future war would only cost $50 billion, which is 20x less than it already has...

So we went to war to prevent a guy from leaving with information that would fit maybe on a notebook, or a few hard drives?

" The nervous Aznar asked repeatedly whether Saddam might perhaps be persuaded to leave Baghdad without military action -- eliciting a cryptic admission from Bush that it was indeed possible because the Egyptians were secretly discussing a possible deal with the Iraqi dictator that would allow him to depart with a billion dollars and "all the information he wants on weapons of mass destruction."

"...Bush quipped that sending Saddam into exile would save '$50 billion', his administration's ridiculously low estimate for the war's cost (which will now exceed at least 20 times that amount)..."

But Bush quickly waved away any such tantalizing possibility, along with all the rest of the concerns and proposals.... he sternly warned that any foreign leader who continued to oppose him would be punished."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=15&entry_id=20648
http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2007/09/28/aznar_iraq/