Author Topic: General Climate Discussion  (Read 93282 times)

Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2040 on: September 05, 2008, 08:59:43 AM »
Useless...no. We have to stick around untill we have the ice-melting figures in some 3 weeks :D
I can not see an agreement in the maps, especially since GW is not a changeable thing through debates...like political headings for instance....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Baitman

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2041 on: September 05, 2008, 10:42:35 AM »
The Night of Sept 3 I was driving to Calgary Alberta and for over an hour of the drive I was watching the Northern Lights (aurora borealis) Now I am used to seeing the lights but I can't reccal if I have every seen them so bright and so early in the fall. The old saying was that in 30 days after the lights we are going to be very cold that would be the beginning of Oct.

The crops in much of Alberta are not maturing because of lack of heat units (GDD). It almost apears that we are set for another cold winter here. So much for Global Warming 
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Offline Hornet33

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2042 on: September 05, 2008, 03:06:54 PM »
I found this artical rather funny. They've found artifacts under what used to be a glacier that are around 4-5000 years old. So 4-5000 years ago there wasn't any ice there, but now the global warming idiots are screaming because the glaciers are melting.

Doesn't this seem to support the entire theroy that the climate moves in cycles? Sometimes it's hot, sometimes it's cold, nothing we do as humans is going to change that little fact, and the earth will maintain it's very own balance.


BERN (AFP) - Some 5,000 years ago, on a day with weather much like today's, a prehistoric person tread high up in what is now the Swiss Alps, wearing goat leather pants, leather shoes and armed with a bow and arrows.
 
The unremarkable journey through the Schnidejoch pass, a lofty trail 2,756 metres (9,000 feet) above sea level, has been a boon to scientists. But it would never have emerged if climate change were not melting the nearby glacier.

So far, 300 objects dating as far back as the Neolithic or New Stone Age -- about 4,000 BC in Europe -- to the later Bronze and Iron Ages and the Medieval era have been found in the site's former icefields.

"We know now that the discoveries on Schnidejoch are the oldest of this kind ever made in the Alps," said Albert Hafner, an expert with the archaeology service in Bern canton.

They have allowed researchers not only to piece together snapshots of life way back when, but also to shed light on climate fluctuations in the past 6,500 years -- and hopefully shed light on what is happening now.

"For us, the site itself is the most important find because we have this correlation between climate change and archaeological objects," Hafner said.

"We know that people were only able to walk on this site when it was relatively warm," said Martin Grosjean, executive director of a national network called Swiss Climate Research. "When it was too cold, the glacier advanced and it was not a passable route."

Scientists have long known there were periods of warmer weather in the region but the artefacts allowed them to identify the exact years, when the site would have been passable on foot.

According to Grosjean, such data could help sharpen forecasts for the future by taking into account patterns of natural temperature fluctuation.

The treasure trove preserved in the icefields was discovered after two hikers noticed a strange piece of wood lying upon some stones in 2003.

It turned out to be a quiver -- a case for arrows -- made from birch bark and dating as far back as 3,000 B.C. Hafner said this object may be the most significant single discovery at the site.

"It is the only quiver found that is made of birch bark. It is unique in Europe," he said.

Since then, even older objects have been excavated, including a wooden bow estimated to predate by 1,000 years the famed "Oetzi the Iceman" -- a 5,100-year-old frozen body found high in the Tyrolean Alps on a glacier straddling Italy and Austria in 1991.

Experts have deduced that many of the most valuable items may have originated from one ill-fated person, probably carrying the quiver, bow and arrows and clothed in leather pants and shoes.

"We think the person may have been killed during an accident because there were several objects from the same period found on the site," said Hafner. "It is unlikely that people would be leaving these objects so high up in the mountain."

The leather samples are also the oldest of their kind ever found, said Grosjean. "Leather decays easily in ambient temperatures. We know there were villages by the lakes in Switzerland but we've never found such leather objects," he said.

Analysis showed the pants' patch was made from a domesticated goat that resembled a breed recorded in Laos in those days.

"But the chances that the goat migrated from Laos are very slim. It could be a species that we had never before recorded to have been present in the Europe. Or its lineage may have died out since," said Grosjean.

Five years on, discoveries continue as the glaciers retreats.

"Last week, we found another Roman coin," said Grosjean, while Hafner said talks were underway with several museums on a future exhibition of the finds.

And with climate change, more such sites could emerge.

"The leather pieces are the oldest such finds now but maybe in the coming years, with other glaciers retreating around the world, they may not be the oldest for long," said Grosjean.

A recent UN Environment Programme report said by the end of the century, swathes of mountain ranges worldwide risk losing their glaciers if global warming continues at its projected rate.

"The ongoing trend of worldwide and rapid, if not accelerating, glacier shrinkage ... may lead to the deglaciation of large parts of many mountain ranges by the end of the 21st century," the report warned.

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Offline Baitman

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2043 on: September 05, 2008, 11:49:05 PM »
I too enjoy looking back at geological history. Finding Icemen way up in the mountain passes is proof that we traded very long ago. North America is very young and that is probably why we aren't seeing more of that on our side of the pond.
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Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2044 on: September 06, 2008, 11:30:34 AM »
I found this artical rather funny. They've found artifacts under what used to be a glacier that are around 4-5000 years old. So 4-5000 years ago there wasn't any ice there, but now the global warming idiots are screaming because the glaciers are melting.

Doesn't this seem to support the entire theroy that the climate moves in cycles? Sometimes it's hot, sometimes it's cold, nothing we do as humans is going to change that little fact, and the earth will maintain it's very own balance.


BERN (AFP) - Some 5,000 years ago, on a day with weather much like today's, a prehistoric person tread high up in what is now the Swiss Alps, wearing goat leather pants, leather shoes and armed with a bow and arrows.
 
The unremarkable journey through the Schnidejoch pass, a lofty trail 2,756 metres (9,000 feet) above sea level, has been a boon to scientists. But it would never have emerged if climate change were not melting the nearby glacier.

So far, 300 objects dating as far back as the Neolithic or New Stone Age -- about 4,000 BC in Europe -- to the later Bronze and Iron Ages and the Medieval era have been found in the site's former icefields.

"We know now that the discoveries on Schnidejoch are the oldest of this kind ever made in the Alps," said Albert Hafner, an expert with the archaeology service in Bern canton.

They have allowed researchers not only to piece together snapshots of life way back when, but also to shed light on climate fluctuations in the past 6,500 years -- and hopefully shed light on what is happening now.

"For us, the site itself is the most important find because we have this correlation between climate change and archaeological objects," Hafner said.

"We know that people were only able to walk on this site when it was relatively warm," said Martin Grosjean, executive director of a national network called Swiss Climate Research. "When it was too cold, the glacier advanced and it was not a passable route."

Scientists have long known there were periods of warmer weather in the region but the artefacts allowed them to identify the exact years, when the site would have been passable on foot.

According to Grosjean, such data could help sharpen forecasts for the future by taking into account patterns of natural temperature fluctuation.

The treasure trove preserved in the icefields was discovered after two hikers noticed a strange piece of wood lying upon some stones in 2003.

It turned out to be a quiver -- a case for arrows -- made from birch bark and dating as far back as 3,000 B.C. Hafner said this object may be the most significant single discovery at the site.

"It is the only quiver found that is made of birch bark. It is unique in Europe," he said.

Since then, even older objects have been excavated, including a wooden bow estimated to predate by 1,000 years the famed "Oetzi the Iceman" -- a 5,100-year-old frozen body found high in the Tyrolean Alps on a glacier straddling Italy and Austria in 1991.

Experts have deduced that many of the most valuable items may have originated from one ill-fated person, probably carrying the quiver, bow and arrows and clothed in leather pants and shoes.

"We think the person may have been killed during an accident because there were several objects from the same period found on the site," said Hafner. "It is unlikely that people would be leaving these objects so high up in the mountain."

The leather samples are also the oldest of their kind ever found, said Grosjean. "Leather decays easily in ambient temperatures. We know there were villages by the lakes in Switzerland but we've never found such leather objects," he said.

Analysis showed the pants' patch was made from a domesticated goat that resembled a breed recorded in Laos in those days.

"But the chances that the goat migrated from Laos are very slim. It could be a species that we had never before recorded to have been present in the Europe. Or its lineage may have died out since," said Grosjean.

Five years on, discoveries continue as the glaciers retreats.

"Last week, we found another Roman coin," said Grosjean, while Hafner said talks were underway with several museums on a future exhibition of the finds.

And with climate change, more such sites could emerge.

"The leather pieces are the oldest such finds now but maybe in the coming years, with other glaciers retreating around the world, they may not be the oldest for long," said Grosjean.

A recent UN Environment Programme report said by the end of the century, swathes of mountain ranges worldwide risk losing their glaciers if global warming continues at its projected rate.

"The ongoing trend of worldwide and rapid, if not accelerating, glacier shrinkage ... may lead to the deglaciation of large parts of many mountain ranges by the end of the 21st century," the report warned.



We're getting artifacts from under a glacier that are from WW2. I've seen one engine of a B-17 for instance.
They're age is not all the same, and a glacier always delivers back what it has taken..once.
And that "once" depends on their age. Some go through in 50 years, some in 100.000.
The melting is however another issue...when for instance every glacier on a whole continent is shrinking...?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2045 on: September 06, 2008, 02:47:07 PM »
The melting is however another issue...when for instance every glacier on a whole continent is shrinking...?

Not North America... Shasta's glaciers are growing, as well as some in Alaska.

Not Europe, Mont Blanc, actually grew last summer as the glacier on its summit got thicker.  It now stands 2m taller at 4,810m (15781ft). The volume of ice has doubled since 2005 to reach 24,100 cubic metres.

Asia? Nope, A new study of the Karakoram, Hindu Kush, and Western Himalaya mountain ranges by researchers at England's Newcastle University shows consistent recent growth among the region's glaciers.

Africa? Well Kilamanjaros Glaciers are retreating, but a National Geographic reported, "The research team found new evidence showing that lower precipitation—and not rising temperatures on the summit—is the main cause for the Kilimanjaro glaciers' retreat."

Australia?  C'mon..."Scientists say the shrinking of Australia's little-known glaciers on remote, sub-Antarctic Heard Island in the Indian Ocean reveals global warming now stretches from the tropics to the edge of Antarctica."  Heard Island isn't really the continent is it?

South America? -- Chile's Pio XI and Perito Moreno Glacier in Argentina are growing or at least PM is in equilibrium.

Antartica? -- Science magazine reported the East Antarctic ice-sheet interior north of 81.6°S increased in mass by 45 ± 7 billion metric tons per year from 1992 to 2003.  While University of Colorado researchers used data from a pair of NASA satellites to determine that the Antarctic ice sheet has lost significant mass in recent years.  But if both are correct, the east AIS is growing and therefore every glacier on a whole continent would not be shrinking.




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Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2046 on: September 07, 2008, 07:07:20 AM »
Well. I rule that as a random snowfall compared to glacier Vatnajökull who is rapidly retreating. There you have 3.100 km3 and will need to go to Spitzbergen or Siberia to find anything bigger....
It's almost 1.300 times bigger in volume than Mont Blanc, btw, hence the "snowfall" comparison.
And with Ice 1000 m thick...well, the bottom one is quite well squished...more than tope ice.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Jackal1

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2047 on: September 07, 2008, 10:31:15 AM »
The ice is melting in my Jack #7 again.
Note to self: Must immediately start Doomsday procedures.
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Offline avionix

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2048 on: September 07, 2008, 08:32:13 PM »
Quote
The ice is melting in my Jack #7 again.
Note to self: Must immediately start Doomsday procedures.

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

 :noid
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Offline pallero

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Offline SkyRock

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2050 on: September 19, 2008, 04:25:04 PM »
lotta big hurris here in the last 10 years or so...........











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Offline Charon

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2051 on: September 19, 2008, 04:45:48 PM »
Too many posts so I didn't bother to read them.

So, what's the take away? Is this global warming thing for real or not?

Charon

Offline pallero

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2052 on: September 19, 2008, 05:01:05 PM »
Too many posts so I didn't bother to read them.

So, what's the take away? Is this global warming thing for real or not?

Charon

No, the sun will turn down.

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/sep/HQ_M08176_Ulysses_teleconference.html

Offline alskahawk

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2053 on: September 19, 2008, 06:59:07 PM »
"Not North America... Shasta's glaciers are growing, as well as some in Alaska."

 I saw Mendenhall Glacier (Juneau) in July. Its shrinking. Very noticeablely.  Which ones are growing in Alaska?



Offline MORAY37

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #2054 on: September 20, 2008, 01:28:45 PM »
No, the sun will turn down.

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/sep/HQ_M08176_Ulysses_teleconference.html

Did you even read what's in your hyper?

Quote
WASHINGTON -- NASA will hold a media teleconference Tuesday, Sept. 23, at 12:30 p.m. EDT, to discuss data from the joint NASA and European Space Agency Ulysses mission that reveals the sun's solar wind is at a 50-year low. The sun's current state could result in changing conditions in the solar system

So, you don't believe in anthropogenic climate change, because it got warmer when the sun's solar wind was at a 50 year low?  Interesting, I'd like to hear your side of that.
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