Strato Bomber DWEEBS!

[Mox]

   

Originally posted by Toad:
Mox,
Please do go on about the 20mm on the F4. You say they are overmodeled? If they are, I'll stand with you to get them fixed.

What do you base your opinion on? Do you have military experience with the 20mm or other weapons? Have you done any ballistics tests in the game and compared the results to those you would get from readily available ballistics programs?

Are you not arguing the ballistics but find the damage they do unacceptable? Do you have any experience in this area?

Have you flown aircraft equipped with the 20mm in some country's air force?

Please let us know the experience base from which you form your opinion.

Man I never knew I would have drawn this many problems from one simple post!    

No I don't have any experience with firing 20mm cannons from a plane nor does anyone here.  Well I doubt anyone here, including the entire hitech team, but I could be wrong about that and I'd love to talk to the person that has that type of real life experience.  So in effect we all are just going on our opinions...

The main problem I have with the hogs cannons is range and lethality.  I agree they should be lethal but I don't think they should be lethal at 1.5K and completely destroy a HUGE aircraft with 1 shot.  It's almost as if every single cannon shell IS a golden shell tipped with depleted uranium and loaded with HE.

Why does a HogC pilot fly the HogC?  Because it gives them a very real advantage in AH and what gives them such a advantage?  The GUNS of course.

There are many others here that feel the same way I do about the Hogs 20's and I’m sure just as many people that don’t agree with me.

Everyone can fly the F4UC if they want to and use the advantage of the guns but not everyone is playing this game to start out with such a advantage.  I like a challenge (also the same reason I don’t fly my buff to 40K), so I rarely ever fly it, because I feel it gives ME (I wont speak for the others here) a big advantage over my opponents that don't fly the HogC.  One ping kills are common for me when I’m shooting with the HogC’s guns.

Why is it so absurd that the Hitech crew “could” have made a mistake in there programming of the guns on the HogC?  They made the mistake on the B17’s altitude…
I honestly feel they will tune the Hogs cannons down soon. (Pure speculation on my part)

I have a lot of respect for the good pilots in this game and even more respect for the ones that DON’T fly the HogC as their primary plane.

Mox
The Wrecking Crew


[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-21-2000).]

[CavemanJ]

 

Originally posted by Rude:
So....The Wrecking Crew Frowns on this eh?

Hate to pop ur bubble, but I dont think anyone cares  

Rude Out!

Rude,
frankly we dinnae care if anyone cares or not.  When we're going bombing we prefer to operate accurately and stay under 28k.  I have been tempted to become a stratodweeb though, because I'm sick of the nerf .50s the armorers installed on my buffs.

Ranker,
Mox is squeaking in general, and I'll stand with him and squeak too.  My credentials in the bombers are established, and anyone who cares to can go look them up.  As I've said, I've finished every tour since Beta Tour 1 ranked in the top 3 points wise for bombers, and I haven't climbed above 28k since around the begining of Beta Tour 2.

[Swager]

I took a C205 to 37K once!  That's right and I have proof!  Can you actually see ack at 30K?  I usually bomb from 20-25K and have a hard time picking them out.

I dont fly the F4U. I dont know why, I just dont.  Seems like a pretty little plane though.

The 13th TAS squadron seems alright to me.  Got some good pilots in there. They must have some honor.  RUDE is kinda rude though  

Life is like a box of chocolates, and that is all I have to say about that!

------------------
Swager
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
 
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-21-2000).]

[FDAce]

The 13th TAS Squad is no less honorable for flying a bomber at max altitude than Handy and Bull flying their F4U's at 30K. They win a lot by doing that and I beleive they have a right to due it! Honorability for a squad in my opinion is based on attitude not altitude.

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by FDAce:
Honorability for a squad in my opinion is based on attitude not altitude.

Agreed and with that said I'd like to apologize to all of the 13th TAS that does NOT do the strato flights.  I guess I assumed if the CO of the squad did it then the rest of them do and thats not a fair assumption.

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[Toad]

Originally posted by Mox:
 

No I don't have any experience with firing 20mm cannons from a plane nor does anyone here.  ....  So in effect we all are just going on our opinions...

The main problem I have with the hogs cannons is range and lethality.  I agree they should be lethal but I don't think they should be lethal at 1.5K and completely destroy a HUGE aircraft with 1 shot.  

*******************************
Well, you're wrong. There are guys in here that have flown aircraft with 20mm. Not WW2 Fighters, but experienced none the less. I'll let them reveal themselves if they choose. <I never flew fighters>

We are not ALL just going on opinion. I think perhaps the most vocal complainers are. As in most things, the guys that have been there, done that don't do the complaining.

I'd like to see YOUR films of one ping (one hit sprite? is that what you're saying?) kills on a previously undamaged buff or even multiple ping kills of any undamaged aircraft at 1.5K. In fact, I'll offer you $30, a month's free flying, if you can supply Pyro or HT with such a film that they can authenticate. I'll wager that $30 that you can't do it. You just agree to take back what you say here if you can't supply the film within 30 days, OK?

Mox, have you ever shot any weapon extensively? Are you a licensed pilot? Have you ever flown anything solo?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you; I'm not. But I'm getting a little tired of guys whining with nothing to support it except pure, unbiased, unsubstantiated opinion.

I've had guys that aren't pilots tell me that a rudder trim tab works under different aerodynamic principles when attached to a high horsepower airplane as opposed to a low horsepower airplane. The basis? Opinion.  

I've had guys that have never even shot a BB gun tell me that you can't hit any target at 1k with any type of weapon. The basis? Opinion.  

I've had guys tell me that shooting from a fighter is like trying to shoot while jogging in place. The basis? Opinion.  

You're certainly entitled to your opinion that the 20's on the hog or the .50's on any plane, or this or that, or any old thing is incorrectly modeled. Until you back it up with some fact, some film or some other verifiable, repeatable data....I think I'll just trust HT and Pyro, ok?

These guys were key in developing WB, a LIGHT YEARS step up from AW DOS. I believe they do the research, have the data and clearly have the EXPERIENCE to program this stuff into a flight game <yeah, you read it right, game, not SIM, game> as well as anyone reading this board or even in this business.

Remember the Flap/Lift/Drag discussion? The suggestion was that our flaps were all drag and no lift at all. The gentlemen involved did some verifiable, repeatable testing. Guess what? HT and Pyro checked it out and it's going to change.

There's your formula.

If you're gonna whine, show the proof.  

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-21-2000).]

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Toad:

Originally posted by Mox:
 
*******************************
Well, you're wrong. There are guys in here that have flown aircraft with 20mm. Not WW2 Fighters, but experienced none the less. I'll let them reveal themselves if they choose. <I never flew fighters>

I'd like to see YOUR films of one ping (one hit sprite? is that what you're saying?) kills on a previously undamaged buff or even multiple ping kills of any undamaged aircraft at 1.5K. In fact, I'll offer you $30, a month's free flying, if you can supply Pyro or HT with such a film that they can authenticate. I'll wager that $30 that you can't do it. You just agree to take back what you say here if you can't supply the film within 30 days, OK?

Mox, have you ever shot any weapon extensively? Are you a licensed pilot? Have you ever flown anything solo?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you; I'm not. But I'm getting a little tired of guys whining with nothing to support it except pure, unbiased, unsubstantiated opinion.

Ok let me start off at the top...
If there are pilots here that have flown Hogs with 20mm then I'd love to hear their perspective on the guns here.  Since there's none here, as I had guessed then we ALL are going on opinions... agreed?

I wont get into a betting match with you nor do I need your money.  As I simply said prior "I" feel there's a problem with the guns, and I'm basing "my" opinion on several things,
1) what I can do with the guns as opposed to the other guns in the game.
2) the kill stats in the game for the F4UC (kinda hard to dispute that)
3) others opinions, some of which I regard highly

"Mox, have you ever shot any weapon extensively? Are you a licensed pilot? Have you ever flown anything solo?"

not many guns, I had my pilots license when I was 17, and yes I've flown several Cessna's solo.  I'm not sure why you asked these questions because they have absolutely nothing to do with the Hogs cannons.  We are talking opinions here, you are welcome to yours, as I am to mine.

Mox says: "Toad, is the sky red, it looks red to me?"
Toad responds: "no it's blue, shut up you whiner because you cannot "prove" it's red"
 (Image removed from quote.)

I could just as easily be arguing that you're wrong and you have no way to prove that the guns are working as they should.

Just opinions Toad, just opinions...

It seems the guns on the F4UC are a hot topic with the people that fly them regularly.  (Image removed from quote.)
I personally have 3 friends that will subscribe once the hogs cannons are nerfed to a reasonable level and/or fixed.  The HogC's guns are the ONLY reason they will not subscribe here.  I've explained over and over to them to stay the hell away from the HogC's but with so many flying them it's kinda hard to do so.  Two of them had some bad times with Torque while they had their free 2 weeks.  (Image removed from quote.)

I'm sure HiTech and the rest of the crew did some extensive research to model the guns but even they can make mistakes.  I'm fairly confident that they will either find their mistake and correct it our turn the guns down in some way to promote better play balance.

With all this being said, this is the best Online Sim I've every played.  I'd also have to say that this is the best online community I've ever been a part of.

When did opinions become a "whine"?

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[Rude]

Hiyas Mox!

Thanks for the apology to my squad.


Cyas Up!

Rude Out!

[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 03-21-2000).]

[Toad]

Mox,

Ballistics is a relatively simple, known science. If you have the muzzle velocity, projectile weight, ballistic coefficient and a few other factors, it's real easy to compute range and trajectory. It's one of tghe few things a computer can do really well. It isn't opinion, it's basically physics. It's repeatable and delivers the same results for anyone performing the same experiment.

For a quick intro at an excellent site, may I suggest:
 http://www.lascruces.com/~jbm/

I believe Pyro has the necessary data on the gun rounds to plug into a ballistics program. I believe he also uses a good ballistics program. Therefore, I believe he has given us a basically "good" guns model.

If you disagree, why don't you do some ballistic computations and challenge his results? Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.

Now the damage model is not an exact science. Even the USAF is having trouble developing a computer model for that. Maybe that's where you should focus your complaints.

In any event, I'll open my previous offer to anyone. I'll pay HTC $30 to cover one month's flying if ANYONE can send Pyro a film showing themselves as they "completely destroy a HUGE aircraft with 1 shot" as Mox would have us believe.(That is ONE hit sprite Mox?) We're talking a clean, undamaged HUGE aircraft here.

Or send in a film showing a kill on a previously undamaged aircraft at a range beyond 1.4K as Mox suggests is possible.

Send films of either type to Pyro and if he authenticates it, I'll pay your AH for one month.

Put up or shut up.

[Shamus]

GAWDDD not again Mox!!

Last night a member of your squad was razing the bish for making a hi alt attempt on your dar, calling them dweebs and all, saying haha didnt work did it?.Now I refuse to say anything derogatory about a fellow Michiganian but I think you rooks need to do some self examination (no not that kind)

Thirty minutes later I investigated a dot over one of our bases and guess what, hi alt(35k+) rook 17.

I finally engaged (wallowed around) at 38K!! in a p38, I pinged him, he pinged me, I ran out of ammo and gas, end of fight.

Now Im not a buff pilot, but the simple solution has been stated many,many times before in these forums, make hitting your target a little closer to historic, thats up to HTC. If a B17 will climb to 38K and still be able to hit its target, thats where you will find them.

Shamus

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
Mox,
Ballistics is a relatively simple, known science. If you have the muzzle velocity, projectile weight, ballistic coefficient and a few other factors, it's real easy to compute range and trajectory. It's one of tghe few things a computer can do really well. It isn't opinion, it's basically physics. It's repeatable and delivers the same results for anyone performing the same experiment.

For a quick intro at an excellent site, may I suggest:
 http://www.lascruces.com/~jbm/

I believe Pyro has the necessary data on the gun rounds to plug into a ballistics program. I believe he also uses a good ballistics program. Therefore, I believe he has given us a basically "good" guns model.

If you disagree, why don't you do some ballistic computations and challenge his results? Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.

Now the damage model is not an exact science. Even the USAF is having trouble developing a computer model for that. Maybe that's where you should focus your complaints.

I agree ballistics "without lag" is an easy science.  However we have lag here and some of us have much more than others.  Net lag can cause many odd things to happen, as I'm sure you’re aware of, but until we have a formula for the ballistics WITH net lag, we're all just blowing smoke.... and making "best guesses".
<Gets in car and drives to 210 Park Blvd. Suite 100 Grapevine, TX to get Pyro to explain in detail how the ballistic and damage models are done>  

I'm sure it's much more difficult to get an accurate damage model working.  Why is it that the HogC's cannons out damage (or seem to out damage) all the guns in the arena including the 30mm?  Is it the guns or the damage model... who knows but I know I usually will go down with a single ping from a HogC where as I don't notice it near as much with ANY other cannon plane.

Toad can I assume your primary ride is the HogC?    If it is do you think you would do just as well in the F4UD?

Seriously Toad don't take any of this personal, as I tend to get into some heated arguments from time to time.  I'm a skeptic most of the time and generally don't believe too many people until I'm confident they are not full of toejam.  

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Shamus:
GAWDDD not again Mox!!
Last night a member of your squad was razing the bish for making a hi alt attempt on your dar, calling them dweebs and all, saying haha didnt work did it?.Now I refuse to say anything derogatory about a fellow Michiganian but I think you rooks need to do some self examination (no not that kind)  

Thirty minutes later I investigated a dot over one of our bases and guess what, hi alt(35k+) rook 17.

Well I tried to see how everybody felt about this "stratodweeb stuff" and it seems apparent many of the squads do it and will continue to do it. I know I had several people post to this thread that felt it was wrong, exploiting, or flat out cheating to do it but it seems the consensus is to exploit, so I guess everything is open now.

I'm torn I guess... do I stay with the ones that I call honorable or do I claim open season on any and all exploits?  If it can be done in game, a guess you guys see it as fair and square.

<Ponders the thought of eating and getting to watch TV since I'll be flying at 40K>
 

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[weazel]

 Solution is simple-Dump The Quakehog!
At the moment it is the only plane I hate to see while flying a bomber,anything else is just another kill.  

[Toad]

LOL!

So now Pyro should build a super accurate, realistic ballistics model and then fudge it for NET LAG?

I guess then you'd want to fudge roll rate for NET LAG, of course; don't forget acceleration and climb rate too. In fact, lets just adjust the whole game to compensate for the never constant, ever changing, un-quantifiable NET LAG! Forget trying to do it as well as you can...let's just dumb stuff down till a bunch of guys that play a lot of flight sims think it's "just right".  

Great idea! Wonder why no one has thought of it before!  

Yeah, I fly the F4UC quite a bit. Always used to be a T&B guy in previous games, but time flys and arenas change.

Studied the -51 under Rude in AH and found that a B&Z guy can live a long time IF he's careful. When the F4C came out, I gave it a try as a B&Z plane. Not really as good in that role as the -51 but the guns do make up for it. Don't ya just HATE that?  

I'm willing to bet if you stuck this exact same gun model on a FW you'd hear no complaints at all. Just simpering, fawning adulation about the wonderful German engineering.  

[coyote]

 

Originally posted by funked:
Don't hate tha playa, hate tha gaaaaaaame!

The BUFFs need fixed flight models and a realistic Norden.  That will be the end of the strato-dweebs.

  yup and it would get rid of buff pilots all together per my previous outstandingly intellegent post. I love me.



------------------
Coyote