Author Topic: who made the best cc weapons in WW2?  (Read 6597 times)

Offline Angus

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #225 on: January 09, 2008, 02:35:35 AM »
.45 is 11.43 mm right?
BTW, I forgot to mention the PPs. What was the caliber again? Anyway, good ROF and a big clip ;)
And, as a sidenote, the last murder victim in my country fell for a single .22
The killer used another .22 successfully to kill himself.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline moot

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #226 on: January 09, 2008, 02:55:26 AM »
A needle in the right place will kill you too.
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Offline B@tfinkV

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #227 on: January 09, 2008, 08:52:08 AM »
forgetting to breath for 10 mins can too.


perfect murder weapon has got to be an icicle. stab them through the heart with a 10" icicle and let the evidence melt away.

sorry, i didnt mean to type that out loud.
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Offline lazs2

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #228 on: January 09, 2008, 08:55:03 AM »
the thing about 9mm ball is that it is a notoriously poor stopper.. WWII and.. later conflicts used ball ammo.

Marshals study is very important as was the one of the autopsy guy.. real life always beats out the theory.    

I believe that there is a velocity level where caliber is not as important.. say a 45 at 850 fps compared to a .308 at 2800 fps.. the velocity of the .308 is just overwhelming in most cases..  but..

A few hundred fps one way or the other don't make much difference.. not near the difference size make..  a 9mm for instance at 1100 fps compared to a 45 at 850..   a good big man always beats a good small man..  or nearly always.

Best to bet on the good big man.

Once exotic bullet shapes and designs are put into the mix.. things change around a bit but.. a good bullet design in 45 is still better than a good one in 9mm.

a bad 45 (say ball) is not as good... most of the time.. as a really good 9mm round.

lazs

Offline B@tfinkV

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #229 on: January 09, 2008, 09:27:17 AM »
see its amazing lazs. for a heathen like me being shot is being shot. a bullet that hits you is a bullet that hits you. if you get my meaning.

i geuss its the difference between a nice round hole in your shoulder (9mm) and a nice stump where your shoulder used to be(45).

i dont plan to get shot by or shoot at people so hopefully my ignorance will go unpunished.
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Offline FrodeMk3

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #230 on: January 09, 2008, 11:26:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
see its amazing lazs. for a heathen like me being shot is being shot. a bullet that hits you is a bullet that hits you. if you get my meaning.

i geuss its the difference between a nice round hole in your shoulder (9mm) and a nice stump where your shoulder used to be(45).

i dont plan to get shot by or shoot at people so hopefully my ignorance will go unpunished.


God willing, Bat...

But there's quite a bit of science to ballistics-One which is followed avidly by shooter's in the U.S. Especially since the purchase of a firearm anymore involves' the expenditure of several hundred U.S. dollars, so people tend to get picky over caliber in the same way that motorists' buying a car get picky over engine, transmission, etc.

Offline B@tfinkV

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #231 on: January 09, 2008, 01:40:15 PM »
"so sir will you be intending to blow people's heads clean off or are you only looking in the 'maim for life' range or lower calibres?"

surely a true expert and marksman would be just as deadly - if not more so - with a small calibre round as a large one?
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Offline Angus

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #232 on: January 09, 2008, 01:54:57 PM »
Lazs:
"A few hundred fps one way or the other don't make much difference.. not near the difference size make.. a 9mm for instance at 1100 fps compared to a 45 at 850.. a good big man always beats a good small man.. or nearly always."

Not quite. You have energy which is weight vs speed, and then diameter.
Sort of like electrics, - Volts and ampers into watts....

Anyway, the sheer speed of the bullet usually makes a lot of damage. A recent survey (don't have a link no more) indicated that a lot of damage around a "hole" was done sheerly by the shock of the speed rather than diameter alone. So in your example I might think the 9 mm would be more effective, especially if getting into the gut, since I don't know the weight.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #233 on: January 09, 2008, 02:01:39 PM »
angus.. I am aware of all the theory.   the truth of the matter is tho that in real life situation.. studies of hundreds of cases.. all else being equal.. the small fast bullet doesn't have the knock down power of the slightly slower big bullet even if the energy is the same.

lazs

Offline AKIron

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #234 on: January 09, 2008, 02:05:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
angus.. I am aware of all the theory.   the truth of the matter is tho that in real life situation.. studies of hundreds of cases.. all else being equal.. the small fast bullet doesn't have the knock down power of the slightly slower big bullet even if the energy is the same.

lazs


For a good reason I think. A faster but smaller bullet with the same energy as a slower larger bullet is more likely to completely penetrate the target therefore transferring less of it's energy to that target.
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Offline Angus

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #235 on: January 09, 2008, 06:30:01 PM »
Well it boils down to the weight as well, now doesn't it?
A heavier bullet will slow down..slower.
And I don't have the weight comparison. 9mm to 0.45 however don't have a big difference in diameter, and btw, why have modern forces taken up the usage of what, 5.6 mm high velocity rounds?
You see, penetration is also an issue.... a stabbing issue ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline GtoRA2

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #236 on: January 09, 2008, 06:51:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
"so sir will you be intending to blow people's heads clean off or are you only looking in the 'maim for life' range or lower calibres?"

surely a true expert and marksman would be just as deadly - if not more so - with a small calibre round as a large one?


We could talk about expert marksman etc, but thats not who the average gun owner is in the US.

The average gun owners are the people on this board who own guns. Like myself, or Laz, or Charon or so many others.

Now I know Laz is a better shot then I am. I am competent, but not as good as I feel I should be cause I do not have the time and money to spend on ammo to shoot once a week, so at best I go once a month.

With no stress I don't miss the target.

Stress changes things. We can not assume we will be able to take a nice aimed head shot. Life doesn't work that way and when the adrenaline is running your not going to be at your best for fine motor control. For that reason people want stopping power, you don't want to have to shoot a guy 3 times to stop him when hitting him one time under stress is hard enough.

If you think maybe then we shouldn't have guns, keep in mind on average I would be willing to bet, your average gun enthusiast is a better shot then your average cop.

If your going to depend on something for keeping you alive, don't you think you would want to know that the tool is going to do the job well, not just ok?

Offline SIG220

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #237 on: January 09, 2008, 07:01:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
The BAR was far too heavy. The Bren Gun was better, but still too heavy.


One would not want to shoot the .30-06 round full auto from a lightweight gun.

SIG 220

Offline SIG220

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #238 on: January 09, 2008, 07:04:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Johnson rifle  
Johnson LMG  
Johnson SMG


I wounder how many service men died while being hammed down on by germans after hearing that retarded "PING, im highly vulnerable now, shoot me while i reload" the garand had.

Retards.


Do you actually think that really could have ever happened, in all the noise and stress of combat?

SIG 220

Offline FrodeMk3

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who made the best cc weapons in WW2?
« Reply #239 on: January 09, 2008, 07:07:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Well it boils down to the weight as well, now doesn't it?
A heavier bullet will slow down..slower.
And I don't have the weight comparison. 9mm to 0.45 however don't have a big difference in diameter, and btw, why have modern forces taken up the usage of what, 5.6 mm high velocity rounds?
You see, penetration is also an issue.... a stabbing issue ;)


Bullet weight, measured in grains, comes into play here.

Most early and standard 9mm. ball, or FMJ, rounds are around 115-125 grains. The .45 ACP FMJ weighs 230 grains, about twice as much. That extra weight translates' into more 'carry through' energy on-target.

BTW, a 9mm projectile measured in standard english measurement is about .357 of an inch. (So is a .38 special projectile; The reason for that goes' back to black-powder days). It may not seem like much, but when you increase the diameter of a .35 round circle by an extra .10 inch, it makes quite a difference.

As to the 5.56mm., In SAE measurement, it is known as a .223, or .22 if you don't want to be so picky with the micrometer. The theory behind the 5.56mm, ever since It wa introduced in the late '50's, is that a 55-grain bullet travelling at 3,500-4,000 FPS would cause wounding, without necessarily killing, Enemy soldiers. DoD studies' had come to the conclusion that a wounded Man was better than a dead one, because wounds' required battlefield medics, Doctors, and nurses to care for him. It was theorized that the logistics' of manpower dedicated to medical support for enemy forces' would be an enormous advantage. Plus, It was also estimated that the average combat-load per soldier could be tripled with the smaller, lighter ammo; Soldiers' that had previously carried about 100 rounds of 7.62mm NATO could now carry something like 300 rounds' of 5.56mm, which also helped improve the logistical situation in the field. It turned out that there were quite a few reasons' to switch.