P-61 Black Widow

[a1945]

It's worth my time... 25 mph faster than the A-20G, turn radius superior to the F6F and the most potent gun set in the game. Four bombs of up to 1,600 lb each (6,400 lb total). I'd be happy to fly this beastie. It was more than a night fighter, being used frequently for interdiction and ground attack. With nearly full-span flaps, its power-on stall speed was as low as 65 mph...

Think about it... Compared to the current Mosquito in the game, the P-61B is only slightly slower at 335 mph at sea level. The Mossie climbs better by about 400 fpm. The P-61B offers 3 times the bomb load, superior gun package (secondary of four .50s vs four .303s), superior turn radius and durability of not having radiators. Plus, there's a rear gunner who can use the upper turreted four .50s to defend against fighters. 800 rounds of 20mm, 2,240 round of .50 cal. Turret automatically set to fire forward unless over-ridden by the gunner.

Yeah, I'd welcome the Black Widow.

My regards,

Widewing

I agree, BRING THE WIDOWS!

[Cthulhu]

Pilot reports show that the P-61 could out-turn the F6F-5. All P-61s had a very tight turn radius.

When I see someone admit to speculating ("I would speculate that the claims of the Black Widow being very maneuverable and having high performance are limited to the P-61C model"), it means that they didn't bother to do any serious research. Performance was mediocre, but handling was terrific.

My regards,

Widewing

Widewing,

That was always my understanding as well. I'd always heard the spoilers on the 61B gave it a very high roll-rate, and that as you said, it could outturn pretty much in the US inventory. I threw those "borrowed" comments out for discussion because they seemed contrary to every bit of data I'd ever seen. Do you have any data comparing the P-61B to the C?

[Tails]

Widewing,

That was always my understanding as well. I'd always heard the spoilers on the 61B gave it a very high roll-rate, and that as you said, it could outturn pretty much in the US inventory. I threw those "borrowed" comments out for discussion because they seemed contrary to every bit of data I'd ever seen. Do you have any data comparing the P-61B to the C?

I have some information I dug up from the internets that suggests the following:

P-61A-10-NO onward (inclusive of the B-series) seems to have R-2800-65 Double Wasps with water injection. Max Power 2250hp each
P-61C used turbocharged R-2800-73's. Max power 2800hp each.

Unfortunately, the war ended before any C-models made it to combat. The latest version to see combat was the P-61B-20-NO (Targetting system upgrade), but I can only find two SerNo's assigned to that type. The most numerous seems to be a mix of B-10 and B-15 blocks, with the difference between them being the B-15's reintroducing the dorsal barbette.

[alisa53]

Interesting link here:

http://www.nightfighter.info/

Scherf -- Thanks for picking up on the website we've posted in my Dad's honor.  We have gotten a number of hits from the Aces High II Bulletin Board and we really appreciate the interest.  If anyone has information about the JingBow Joyride, my father's plane, or about the 426th Night Fighter Squadron, we'd be happy to hear from you.  Thanks again for the interest.

[Yossarian]

The P-61 would be an excellent addition.

turn radius superior to the F6F and the most potent gun set in the game. ... its power-on stall speed was as low as 65 mph...

Widewing, I don't know if this is a relevant question, how quickly could it complete a turn compared to the F6F (I guess I mean how many degrees per second can it do)?  Also, what is a "power-on" stall speed?

<S>

Yossarian

[flyboy96]

I'd like to see a new fighter/attacker ie:

(Image removed from quote.)

GENERAL INFORMATION:
Type:
    P-61: Three-seat Night Fighter
    F-15: Two-seat strategic reconaissance
Manufacturer: Northrop
Models: P-61A thru C, F-15 (RF-61C) Reporter
First Flight: May 21, 1942 (XP-61)



It wasn't really an attacker(if you mean by bomber),but i would rather go for the P-61 than the F-15.


I also think it would be a GREAT plane to add to AH2!!!!!
Service Delivery:
    May 1944 (P-61A)
    1946 (F-15A)
Final Delivery: N/A
Total Produced: 941 (plus 35 photo-recon versions)
_____________________________ ___________
POWERPLANT:
   Model: Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp
   Type: 18-Cyl 2-Row Radials
   Horsepower (P-61A): 2,000hp R-2800-10
   Horsepower (P-61B): 2,000hp R-2800-65
   Horsepower (P-61C and F-15): 2,800hp R-2800-73
FUEL:
   Capacity: N/A
   Type: N/A
DIMENSIONS:
   Wing span: 20.12m (66 ft.)
   Length (P-61A): 14.92m (48 ft. 11 in.)
   Length (P-61B & C): 15.1m (49 ft. 7 in.)
   Length (F-15): 15.3m (50 ft. 3 in.)
   Height: 4.49m (14 ft. 8 in.)
   Wing Surface Area: N/A       WEIGHTS:
   Empty (Typical P-61): 10,886kg (24,000 lbs.)
   Empty (F-15): 9,979kg (22,000 lbs.)
   Maximum, Loaded (P-61A): 14,696kg (32,400 lbs.)
   Maximum, Loaded (P-61B): 17,237kg (38,000 lbs.)
   Maximum, Loaded (P-61C): 18,280kg (40,300 lbs.)
   Maximum, Clean (F-15): 12,700kg (28,000 lbs.)
PERFORMANCE:
   Maximum Speed (P-61A & B): 366 mph (590 km/h)
   Maximum Speed (P-61C): 430 mph (692 km/h)
   Maximum Speed (F-15): 440 mph (708 km/h)
   Initial climb (P-61A & B): 2,200 ft. (670 m) per minute
   Initial climb (P-61C & F-15): 3,000 ft. (914 m) per minute
   Service Ceiling (P-61A & B): 33,000 ft. (10,060 m)
   Service Ceiling (P-61C & F-15): 41,000 ft. (12,500 m)
   Range - Max. Fuel (P-61A): 500 Miles (2360 km)
   Range - Max. Fuel (P-61B & C): 2,800 Miles (4500 km)
   Range - Max. Fuel (F-15): 4,000 Miles (6440 km)
ARMAMENTS:
Four 20mm M-2 Cannon in belly, fixed forward.
Plus
Electric Dorsal turret with four .50 machine guns, remotely controlled
from front or rear sight station and fired by pilot.
(in first 37 A's, last 250 B's and all C's)
Plus (B & C Only)
Wing racks for 6,400 lb. ordnance load.

F-15 carried no armament.
(Taken from http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org)

Now I think the P-61 would be a AWESOME addition!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Swatch]

Sounds like a Late model B has the most value as an inclusion to Aces High. Post -15

Reasons: 
It has the dorsal turret (although not on every Widow, it's somewhat synonymous with the Widow)
Wing Racks for up to 6,500 lbs (adds a valuable attack role)
It flew Combat.

[ERyan]

Pacific Theatre
The first operational use of the P-61 Black Widow was in the Pacific theatre. The 418th, 419th and 421st Night Fighter Squadrons shipped out to the Southwest Pacific Area late in 1943. The first operational mission by Black Widow took place out of Saipan on June 24, 1944, and the first kill was made on June 30, when a Black Widow piloted by 6th Night Fighter Squadron members 2nd Lt. Dale F. Haversom and radar operator Raymond P. Mooney shot down a Betty bomber. The Black Widows flew numerous missions against Japanese night intruders, which were a real nuisance to American forces and which up to this time had been virtually immune from interception. On typical missions, the Black Widow would be directed to the vicinity of its target by ground based radar. The onboard A/I radar under the control of the radar operator would then be used to direct the pilot to close with and intercept the the enemy. As soon as the Black Widow had gotten close enough to its target to make a visual identification, the guns would be aimed and fired by the pilot or by the gunner. The appearance of the Black Widow in the night skies over the Pacific was a rude and unpleasant surprise for these night raiders.

One of the primary missions of the Black Widow squadrons was the protection of B-29 bases on Saipan against night attacks, and these aircraft flew combat air patrols and interception missions. They also aided in the rescue of many crippled and lost B-29s trying to return from raids on Japan.

Black Widows were also based in New Guinea and later in the Philippines. In the Philippines, Black Widows flew night intruder missions against Japanese airfields and ground installations. The Black Widow also participated in the invasion of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.


China-Burma-India Theatre
The Black Widow also served in the China-Burma-India theatre. The first Black Widow kill in that theater took place on October 30, 1944, when a Kunming-based Black Widow flown by Capt. Robert R. Scott and Charles W. Phillips of the 426th Night Fighter Squadron shot down a Japanese twin-engined aircraft. The initial mission of the China-based Black Widows was to destroy Japanese night intruders, but as enemy nighttime flying ceased, the Black Widows went over to night intruder missions, attacking Japanese ground installations in China and Burma.


European Theatre
The first P-61 arrived in Europe on May 23, 1944. The Black Widows were initially based in England, and their first assignment was to chase night-flying V-1 "buzz bombs". The Black Widows would be vectored to intercept approaching V-1s by ground control. Since the V-1 was a little faster than the P-61, the Black Widow had to approach the V-1 from behind and go into a slight dive in order to catch up with it. The first Black Widow V-1 "kill" took place on July 16, 1944, credited to pilot Herman Ernst and radar operator Edward Kopsel of the 422nd Night Fighter Squadron. One of the greatest dangers involved in killing V-1s was the possibility of getting too close to the flying bomb when one fired at it, running the risk of damage to your own plane if the bomb exploded when hit.

After D-Day, many Black Widows moved to France. Although several interceptions of night-flying German aircraft were made, most Black Widow missions were night intruder missions against trains, armor, and other ground targets


Black Widow Wartime Units
Wartime units using the P-61 included:



6th Night Fighter Squadron, Seventh Air Force. Received Black Widows in May 1944. Served in Guadalcanal, New Guinea, Saipan, Iwo Jima. Inactivated February 1947 and reactivated as 339th All Weather Squadron.


414th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widows in December 1944. Served in Algeria, Sardinia, Corsica, Italy, plus detachment to Belgium. Inactivated August 1947 and reformed as 319th All Weather Squadron.


415th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widow in March 1945. Served in Italy, Corsica, France, Germany. Inactived September 1947.


416th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widow in June 1945. Served in Italy, Corsica, France, Germany. Inactived November 1946 and redesignated 2nd Fighter Squadron (All Weather).


417th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force. Received Black Widow in April/May 1945. Served in Italy, Corsica, France, Germany. Inactived November 1946.


418th Night Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force. Received Black Widow in September 1944. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated February 1947 but reactivated August 1948 as 4th All Weather Squadron.


419th Night Fighter Squadron, Thirteenth Air Force. Received Black Widow in May 1944. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated February 1947.


421st Night Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force. Received Black Widow June 1944. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated February 1947. Reactivated august 1948 as 68th All Weather Squadron.


422nd Night Fighter Squadron, Ninth Air Force. Received Black Widow May 1944. Served in England, France, Belgium, Germany. Inactivated September 1945.


425th Night Fighter Squadron, Ninth Air Force. Served in England, France, and Germany. Inactivated August 1947.


426th Night Fighter Squadron, Fourteenth Air Force. Received Black Widow September 1944. Served in India, China to protect B-29 bases from attack. Inactivated November 1945.


427th Night Fighter Squadron. Served briefly in Italy then moved to India, Burma, China. Received Black Widow in August 1944. Inactivated October 1945.


547th Night Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force. Activated March 1944 with P-61. Served in New Guinea, Philippines, Ie Shima, Japan. Inactivated February 1946.


548th Night Fighter Squadron, Seventh Air Force. Activated April 1944 with P-61. Served in Saipan, Iwo Jima, Ie Shima. Inactivated December 1945. Reactivated in 1969 as the 548th Combat Training Squadron. Still in service.


549th Night Fighter Squadron, Seventh Air Force. Activated May 1944 with P-61. Served on Saipan, Iwo Jima. Inactivated February 1946.


550th Night Fighter Squadron. Activated June 1944. Received first Black Widows January 1945. Served in New Guinea, Philippines. Inactivated January 1946.
The Black Widow did not rack up an impressive list of kills. Its entry into the war was relatively late, at a time when the Allies had already established almost complete control of the air. Consequently, enemy aircraft were at this time relatively few and far between, even at night. Nevertheless, there were a few Black Widow aces. In accounting for Black Widow aces, there is a complication since the aircraft had more than one crew member. Does only the pilot get credit for the kill, or does the radar operator get credit as well? What happens if the pilot has had different radar operators on different missions? What if a radar operator has had more than one pilot? In the European theatre, there was an additional complication because some of the Black Widow kills were against unmanned V-1 'buzz bombs". Should these V-1s kills be included in the count? If V-1s are included, and if both pilots and radar operators are to be given credit for the kill, in Europe, there were two sets of pilots and radar operators who achieved six victories. These were the pair 1st Lt. Herman E. Ernst (pilot) and 2nd Lt. Edward H. Kopsel (radar operator) and the pair Lt. Paul A. Smith (pilot) and Lt. Robert E. Tierney (radar operator). One V-1 is included in the count for each pair of crew members. All of these crew members were from the 418th Night Fighter Squadron. The leading Black Widow crew in the Pacific was the pair Major Carrol C. Smith (pilot) and Lt. Philip B. Porter (radar operator) of the 418th Night Fighter Squadron, who destroyed five Japanese aircraft.

So far as I am aware, the Black Widow never served with any foreign air forces.

Sources:



Northrop P-61 Black Widow--The Complete History and Combat Record, Garry R. Pape, John M. Campbell and Donna Campbell, Motorbooks International, 1991.


The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion, 1987.


Warplanes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume 4, William Green, 1964.


American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.


United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989.


Northrop P-61 Black Widow, Warren Thompson, Wings of Fame Vol 15, 1999.


E-mail from Eric Shulenberger on 548th NFS.


E-mail from James Truman on 547th NFS, which is still active as the 547th Intelligence Squadron.

  excellent info.