is it always supposed to shake?

[ForrestS]

Originally posted by SlapShot
If you are shaking in tight turns ... then you are "stalling".

Bottom line is that you are pulling to hard and trying to turn to hard for what the plane can handle ... you are learning the dynamics of flight ... the hard way.

You didn't say what plane you are flying.

I learned the hard way.

It helps out in the long run.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by SlapShot
WW ... what exactly is "top rudder" ? ... is there "bottom rudder" too ?

'splain Lucy.

you're in a hard left turn.....top rudder is the side facing up..in this case, it'd be right rudder......and bottom would be left......in right turn, they'd be reversed

[CAP1]

Originally posted by SlapShot
If you are shaking in tight turns ... then you are "stalling".

Bottom line is that you are pulling to hard and trying to turn to hard for what the plane can handle ... you are learning the dynamics of flight ... the hard way.

You didn't say what plane you are flying.

when the plane's shuddering, it's not stalled....yet....that shuddering is the warning of the oncomeing stall..........

[Widewing]

Originally posted by SlapShot
WW ... what exactly is "top rudder" ? ... is there "bottom rudder" too ?

'splain Lucy.

As CAP1 stated, top rudder is rudder towards the outer, or "top" wing. IE: Right rudder in a left turn.

SAXMAN and I were working in the TA one evening some time ago, both flying F4U-1A fighters. I was able to fly much tighter circles. I asked how he was controlling his aircraft. It turned out he was using a lot of top rudder. After a simple change (stay off the rudder altogether), he tightened up his circle to very near mine. The entire exercise took less than 5 minutes.

As a general practice, if a pilot finds himself using top rudder in a sustained turn, he is limiting the plane's turning ability. If he has to use frequent top rudder to counter wing dip, he is flying too deep into the stall or not being smooth enough with control input. Sometimes, less is more. The only trick is finding balance.

My regards,

Widewing

[DoNKeY]

Originally posted by Widewing
As CAP1 stated, top rudder is rudder towards the outer, or "top" wing. IE: Right rudder in a left turn.

SAXMAN and I were working in the TA one evening some time ago, both flying F4U-1A fighters. I was able to fly much tighter circles. I asked how he was controlling his aircraft. It turned out he was using a lot of top rudder. After a simple change (stay off the rudder altogether), he tightened up his circle to very near mine. The entire exercise took less than 5 minutes.

As a general practice, if a pilot finds himself using top rudder in a sustained turn, he is limiting the plane's turning ability. If he has to use frequent top rudder to counter wing dip, he is flying too deep into the stall or not being smooth enough with control input. Sometimes, less is more. The only trick is finding balance.

My regards,

Widewing

So is there any time where you would want to use rudder in a turn (excluding trying to roll)?

Thanks,
donkey

[Mace2004]

Yes.  A coordinated turn is the most efficient turn you can do.  By coordinated, I mean that your fuselage is properly aligned with the turn...i.e., no sideslip.  There are several chapters than can be written about adverse yaw, proverse roll, torque and p-factor but what you need to know is that the airplane will turn a differently to the left than to the right.

When you start a turn use some complimentary rudder to yaw the plane in the direction of the desired turn.  Dihedral effect (the tendancy of an airplane to roll due to yaw) will increase your roll rate into the start of the turn and enable much faster rolls.

Once you're in a turn look at the ball (or yaw needle) on your instrument panel.  That will tell you if your airplane has any sideslip as the ball will tend to fall toward the low side.  Use a bit of rudder to the same side as the ball (think of it as "step on the ball") so the ball stays between the two lines. That is a coordinated turn.  Also, this varies with speed.  A sustained turn at high speed generally requires no rudder, it's when you get slow that torque/p-factor begin to overcome the airplanes natural stability and you need the rudder to correct.

Now, here's where it gets more complicated.  With a few exceptions single engine prop airplanes will require you to maintain some left rudder in a left turn but, due to the engine rotation, require no rudder in a right turn.  (The exceptions are airplanes like the Typhoon with props that rotate opposite of most fighters in which case you'll need rudder in a right turn and maybe none to the left).  Twins with counter-rotating props should need no rudder in a sustained turn.  

You should test both left and right turns out for yourself by doing level turns in your favorite rides while looking at the ball or yaw needle.

[Widewing]

Donkey, let's make sure we delineate normal flight from combat where a pilot cannot afford to keep his head in the cockpit.

In a combat situation, where you will be rapidly working stick and rudder, you will not be watching the ball. Practiced pilots will work controls to produce the best result, without actively thinking about it. It's now second nature and done very much by feel and perception.

In keeping with Mace's comments, coordinating controls is something every pilot should practice until it does become second nature. Why? Because, in a combat situation, the pilot who coordinates his controls well will retain more E and be less prone to sudden and unexpected departure from controlled flight.

If you watch a film of a pilot who always seems to have more E than his opponent, pay attention to the turn and bank indicator. You will see that even when working the controls rapidly, the inputs are coordinated and smooth.

When you see a film where a pilot is jerking his aircraft around violently, you will also see a lack of coordination and a subsequent loss of energy and more difficulty with departure from controlled flight. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

My regards,

Widewing

[goober69]

wow i learn so much just reading this forum u guys are the best ess ess

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Widewing
As CAP1 stated, top rudder is rudder towards the outer, or "top" wing. IE: Right rudder in a left turn.

SAXMAN and I were working in the TA one evening some time ago, both flying F4U-1A fighters. I was able to fly much tighter circles. I asked how he was controlling his aircraft. It turned out he was using a lot of top rudder. After a simple change (stay off the rudder altogether), he tightened up his circle to very near mine. The entire exercise took less than 5 minutes.

As a general practice, if a pilot finds himself using top rudder in a sustained turn, he is limiting the plane's turning ability. If he has to use frequent top rudder to counter wing dip, he is flying too deep into the stall or not being smooth enough with control input. Sometimes, less is more. The only trick is finding balance.

My regards,

Widewing

Thanks bud !!!

[Vipper65]

Thanks guys this thread has been very informative.  I read through all this info yesterday but didnt get to try any of it out til this morning.  I have been dying pretty quickly in 1 on 1 fights but was able to make a good showing in my F4U1A against a Yak and at times another F4U this morning.  

I probably would have been able to do a better job if I had been able to use flaps but I was fighting while I was feeding the baby his morning bottle.  I lasted approx ten min and they never were able to get a gun solution on me.  I eventually got way to low and slow causing me to spin out and crash.  It was alot more fun to last awhile than to just get killed right away.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to post the info here, it really is a big help for us rookies.

VipPer65

[Jerlle]

Originally posted by CAP1
the "shaking in the tight turns is the warning of the oncomming stall........what's happening is that you're exceeding the critical angle of attack for that particular aircraft, causeing the air to seperate form the wing....the slower wing will stall first, and this is what causes your spin. you need to work the throttle and flaps, to help avoid, or at least delay the stall........

hope this helps a bit......btw......although i really suck, i do tend to ride the stall a LOT in furballs...........

sorry....i should've explained the angle of atack.......the wing is never perfectly level,,, i think that in level flight, your wing is at about 2 or 3 degrees to the oncomming wind. i think the "critical" angle of attack(that's where the air seprerates from the wing causing the stall)is in the ballpark of 17 degrees. so....you're roled over on your right wing, pulling in behind a bogie......he's slower than you, and is truning very tight....you pull harder to match his turn and pull some lead....but your plane starts shuddering.....that's because you're trying to lift(turn) the nose around into him too hard, making the wing's angle too high for the air to smoothly flow over and under it....and when this happens the wing cannot create lift.

i think i've explained it ok? and hope this helps ya a it.....do what fugative said...go to the training arena, and hook up with a trainer.......it'll do ya a world of good.

good luck!!!!:aok

Cap, you have a pretty good understanding of how angle of attack works.  However, the zero lift angle of attack and the critical angle of attack will vary per airfoil.  The zero lift angle of attack depends a lot on the camber of the wing.  Camber is how curved the wing looks from a side cross section.  Most airfoils will be cambered so the back points slightly down.  If you look at the spoiler on a race car it is a wing.  Instead of generating lift it generates down force.  This is because the camber of the spoiler is opposite of airfoils on aircraft.  When you deploy your flaps you are essentially changing the camber of your wing thus your zero lift angle of attack changes.

Separation is also going to be effected by the Reynolds number associated with the given airfoil.  However, unless you want to read a book, I'll spare the details on that.

Furthermore, separation can happen at any speed.  It will occur at transonic speeds (speeds ranging from Mach 0.7 to Mach 1).  At this point air is no longer consider to be incompressible.  As many of you know, the air passing over the wing is moving faster than the air under the wing.  A sonic shock will form on the top of the wings before the air craft reaches supersonic speeds.  This shock will general large amounts of wave drag and cause separation towards the back of the airfoil.  This is why you lose control of your aircraft at very high speeds.  A shock forms and your control surfaces at the back of the wing no longer have air to push on because of the shock.  Changing the design of the wings will change how and when this shock forms.  Sweeping the wings back will cause it to generate less wave drag.  Using a super critical airfoil design will move the shock further back on the wing letting you maintain control at higher speeds.  The P-51 Mustang is an example of one of the first aircraft to use super critical airfoils.

Sorry if you did not all want that much detail but I love details and I suspect a few of you do too.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by Jerlle
Cap, you have a pretty good understanding of how angle of attack works.  However, the zero lift angle of attack and the critical angle of attack will vary per airfoil.  The zero lift angle of attack depends a lot on the camber of the wing.  Camber is how curved the wing looks from a side cross section.  Most airfoils will be cambered so the back points slightly down.  If you look at the spoiler on a race car it is a wing.  Instead of generating lift it generates down force.  This is because the camber of the spoiler is opposite of airfoils on aircraft.  When you deploy your flaps you are essentially changing the camber of your wing thus your zero lift angle of attack changes.

 Jerrle, i do understand that the airfoil design will change/affect the cruitical AOA....i only chose the numbers i did as they're for a cesssna 172......and i was using them as an example, although i may not have made that clear in my post(i sometimes don't get everything outta my head when i'm tryin to explain something) those differences are ultra clear in the arenas, where a P38 trying to turn inside a Zeke at low speed will never make it  :-)

Separation is also going to be effected by the Reynolds number associated with the given airfoil.  However, unless you want to read a book, I'll spare the details on that.

Furthermore, separation can happen at any speed.

[i also may not have made this clear either......but i thought i did........if we maintained high speed and simply "yanked" the stick into our gut......well.....the airplane will pretty much stop flying..and probably not in a very "user friendly" fashion..this i believe is termed a "departure stall"



 It will occur at transonic speeds (speeds ranging from Mach 0.7 to Mach 1).  At this point air is no longer consider to be incompressible.  As many of you know, the air passing over the wing is moving faster than the air under the wing.  A sonic shock will form on the top of the wings before the air craft reaches supersonic speeds.  This shock will general large amounts of wave drag and cause separation towards the back of the airfoil.  This is why you lose control of your aircraft at very high speeds.  A shock forms and your control surfaces at the back of the wing no longer have air to push on because of the shock.  Changing the design of the wings will change how and when this shock forms.  Sweeping the wings back will cause it to generate less wave drag.  Using a super critical airfoil design will move the shock further back on the wing letting you maintain control at higher speeds.  The P-51 Mustang is an example of one of the first aircraft to use super critical airfoils.

Sorry if you did not all want that much detail but I love details and I suspect a few of you do too.

sorry for what dude? we ALL learn a lot this way!!!!

<>

john

[BaldEagl]

I'll just point out here, since no one else has yet, that the entire wing doesn't stall out at once.  It usually stalls progressively from the wing-root out, so there is warning of a full stall.