Author Topic: Turns  (Read 1067 times)

Offline Yossarian

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Turns
« on: April 01, 2008, 11:00:39 AM »
Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on how to turn properly and/or as rapidly as possible in an aircraft?  I'm just not sure that I'm getting as tight a turning circle as I can, by going into a 90 degree bank and doing my best to ride the stall horn.  Are there any other things I should be doing whilst turning?

<S>

Yossarian
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Offline tokenjo

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Re: Turns
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2008, 12:40:00 PM »
Yoss... Do a search for a website related to ah.  It has kitchen utensils in its name.  Anyways they have a program u can download listing turn info with and w/out flaps.  U can compare numerous planes at the sametime.  Also, there two typical turn rates.  Instantanous and sustained. 

<S>

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Turns
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2008, 01:11:12 PM »
Although stall-fighting is one of my favorite things to do, riding the stall buzzer may or may not be in your best interest based on the fight.  Often times, you're better off increasing the turn radius which increases your speed around the turn.  You're trying to identify your "best turn rate", or the speed/radius combination that gets you around the turn the fastest.  Sometimes in a fight, if I feel I'm losing ground, I'll unload the stick slightly to see if the increased speed can help me get the edge back.  Failing that, you can always dump flaps to bring both speed and turn radius down.

In a true stall-fight, you'll likely find an audible signal in the buffeting that will indicate the point at which a wing is about to stall.  Step beyond that point and you are losing turn rate to stall recovery (even if it's not a full stall).  You'll only find this through practice in the plane(s) you fly.

Another thing to try if you find an opponent out-turning you is to add a slight vertical element to your turn (sort of like adding a high yo-yo to one or opposing sides of your turn).  The vertical element adds distance travelled vertically while at the same time reducing distance travelled horizontally. This effectively tightens your horizontal (flat) turn radius.

I've been flying for almost 12 years now and I still experiment with these techniques in the midst of a close fight seeking that elusive edge that I need to win.
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Offline Spatula

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Re: Turns
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2008, 06:05:30 PM »
Here's the app that tokenjo mentions:
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AKUAG/Resources_Files/PerfComp.aspx
Doc Gonzo also does an online version which has similar sets of data:
http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php

When it comes to turning, there's basically two metrics which you use:
 - Turn Radius. This is the radius of the circle you will turn around. eg size of the circle.
 - Turn Rate. This is the time it takes your aircraft to turn a certain number of degrees. Basically, how fast you can change direction, irrespective of the size of the circle your aircraft follows.

Turn radius is almost perfectly related to your air speed. The faster you go, the bigger the circle you will make, due mostly to centrifical forces. Ironically, if you get too slow (eg on the stall buzzer, flaps out, buffeting etc), you may end up increasing the size of your circle. But in general, the smallest circle is pretty close to the slowest speed you can maintain controlled flight at.

Turn rate is a different beast. Since turn rate is the time in which it takes to comlete a turn, it would seem the faster you go the quicker your aircraft can travel around the circle. But it doesnt quite work like that. The faster you go, the bigger the circle, therefore the longer distance you have to cover. Go too slow, and you have a smaller circle but it will take you longer to get around it. So there's an optimum compromise somewhere between the two where a certain speed will take you around a circle (of a moderate size) in the shortest time. So you want to find the best speed for your aircraft which allows you to turn the smallest circle while still maintaining max-Gs throughout (or as close to it as practicable). This should be your 'corner velocity' (or speed where you achieve your best turn rate). In practice, in AH2, this tends to be around the 250-280 mark depending on the aircraft.

The point to remember is that your best turn rate speed is significantly faster than your best turn radius speed. And, pulling your best turn rate induces a lot of drag and will slow you down very quiclkly. So, your best turn *rate* cannot be maintained. This is also known as 'instantaneous turn'. This is the basis for all that 'keep it fast' and 'dont do too much extended turning unless you have to' type talk. What they really mean is to try keep at or around your best turn rate speed (corner velocity) in order to be able to achieve your turn in faster time than your opponent (eg get your nose around quicker). Using gravity to slow you, or speed you up by placeing nose above or below horizon to help maintain or get closer to your corner velocity.

Some situations will favour the aircraft which can perform the smallest radius, and others will favour the aircraft which can pull the best turn rate. But that is another story...

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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Turns
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2008, 06:25:51 PM »
as Spatula noted you obtain your best instantaneous turn rate at corner speed ( corner velocity )....... and you acheive your best sustained turn rate at a much slower speed sometimes even with a notch or 2 of flaps deployed.  deciding which type of turn is needed is solely dependent upon the point of the fight or type of fight you are in!

there was another thread I was searching for, think it involved the term:BatTurn and Malta1 was asking a question about how fast someone turned around...in that film that was posted in that thread the F4U flyer used a slight nose low turn to stay at/near the F4U's best corner speed/instantaneous turn rate...in which Malta never visually saw him reverse 180 degrees back toward him........

learning every stretched out & flown to the max limit step of the plane types you fly ( from both extreme ends of the flight envelope BlackOut/Compression  to  Stallout & buffeting ) is a must to find the capabilities of what your plane can do........learning these for every plane type enables you to know what your plane is capable of and not verses the plane you are battling.....


nice post, Spat  :aok
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Offline Fox

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Re: Turns
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2008, 12:41:03 PM »
So is the following true for the same planes making flat turns about the same point?

Plane      Speed                                 Turn Radius               Time to complete 360 deg turn
#1          slower than corner velocity     smallest radius           longer than plane #2
#2          at corner velocity                  middle size radius       fastest time
#3          faster than corner velocity      larger radius              longer than plane #2

Offline Spatula

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Re: Turns
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2008, 02:44:50 PM »
So is the following true for the same planes making flat turns about the same point?

Plane      Speed                                 Turn Radius               Time to complete 360 deg turn
#1          slower than corner velocity     smallest radius           longer than plane #2
#2          at corner velocity                  middle size radius       fastest time
#3          faster than corner velocity      larger radius              longer than plane #2

Basically, yes.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Turns
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2008, 03:27:31 PM »
I think we need to clarify the relationship between airspeed and turn-radius.  Here are some excerpts from something I posted awhile back. 

Corner velocity is where an aircraft's maximum turn-rate, and minimum turn-radius occurs for a fixed aircraft configuration (e.g. no flaps etc.).  Have a look at one of Badboy's past Energy-Maneuverability diagrams:



Here's an EM chart of the Spit MkI, Hurricane MkI, and Bf-109E.  Notice the turn-radii for the aircraft.  Turn-radius never gets smaller than the turn-radius at corner speed.  Infact turn-radius actually increases the slower you get below corner speed.  So what gives?  Simply put, in a level turn below corner speed an airplane cannot generate as much lift as is possible at higher speeds up to corner, thus it can't turn as sharply.  The reason is turn-radius is also a function of the maximum g-loading / turning-bank-angle that the aircraft can attain.  Here is the level turn-radius equation:



Eventhough a lower airspeed reduces the numerator, the denominator also reduces with airspeed.  Maximum turn load-factor "n" (g-load) and maximum turn bank-angle "theta" vary in direct proportion to airspeed.  The lower the airspeed below corner, the lower the max g-load / bank angle an airplane can achieve.

Why is this?  Because the slower we go below corner speed, the less lift we are able to achieve and thus the less we're able to turn. 

In a level turn we need "vertical" lift to not only support the weight of the aircraft, but we also need additional lift in the "horizontal" direction to create angular acceleration to curve our flight path.  Thus to turn we need to create more lift than weight of the airplane and incline the airplane at a bank angle to take advantage of the additional lift to turn the plane.  The tighter the level turn, the more lift is needed in the horizontal direction as depicted below:




 
Remember that lift is directly proportional to lift coefficient (Cl) and airspeed squared.  To increase lift we can either increase Cl by increasing angle-of-attack (elevator input), increase airspeed, or both.  In a max performance turn, we can easily attain maximum lift coefficient by yanking back on the stick regardless of airspeed.  If Cl is fixed at it's maximum through elevator input the only other variable that varies is airspeed.  So if you're at Clmax and low airspeed, this is lower lift than obtainable compared to Clmax at a higher airspeed.  Lower airspeed => lower lift => less capability to turn.

So how do we explain the charts from Dok Gonzo's website where turn radius is lower for lower airpseed?  It all has to do with high-lift devices like flaps and slots.  Remember that we can increase lift by increasing lift coefficient.  High lift devices like flaps increase the maximum lift coefficient of an aircraft.  This means this increases the amount of lift capable and also reduces the airspeed to create equivalent lift in a turn compared to the same aircraft without the high-lift device deployed.  Here's another EM Chart from Badboy to demonstrate.



Notice the P-38 with no flaps vs. with 5 notches of flaps.  The flaps enable the P-38 to decrease it's turn-radius from 800 ft (@260mph) down to below 600 ft (@195mph).  This is because the flaps allow the aircraft to obtain a higher maximum lift coefficient.  With flaps this enables the aircraft to obtain the equivalent lift with no flaps but at a much lower airspeed.  Notice however that with 5 notches of flaps that the turn-radius increases (as we now expect) the lower below "corner speed" the airplane goes.

I hope that helps to enlighten the topic.

Tango, XO
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« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 03:34:22 PM by dtango »
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Offline Fox

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Re: Turns
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2008, 12:09:51 PM »
Yes, that is very helpful.  Thank you.  Is there someplace where we can get EM charts for the AH planes?

Offline dtango

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Re: Turns
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 12:54:09 AM »
Is there someplace where we can get EM charts for the AH planes?
Not that I know of Fox.  Badboy has put some together in the past but it's an awful a lot of work to do even a particular aircraft along with the flight models (FM) changing which means the EM charts are no longer valid with each change in the FM.

Private message Badboy.  I'm sure he'd be happy to fire off whatever he had that he thought worthwhile to you.  We used to be able to search by bbs user so you could have found various posts by Badboy to find charts.  However that feature doesn't exist any more (ahem skuzzy ;) ).

Tango, XO
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Offline Yossarian

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Re: Turns
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 01:45:12 PM »
Wow....that is brilliant....thank you very much for all the help guys.   :rock   :salute   :aok

Just got back from a school trip to Greece....looks like I've got a bit of reading to do lol

<S>

Yossarian
Afk for a year or so.  The name of a gun turret in game.  Falanx, huh? :banana:
Apparently I'm in the 20th FG 'Loco Busters', or so the legend goes.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Turns
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2008, 10:34:04 PM »

Corner velocity is where an aircraft's maximum turn-rate, and minimum turn-radius occurs for a fixed aircraft configuration (e.g. no flaps etc.).  Have a look at one of Badboy's past Energy-Maneuverability diagrams:

(Image removed from quote.)

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs


Thank you, Tango,  I will hone to not knowing this. I had assumed minimum turn radius would occur at a slower airsped.

Offline dtango

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Re: Turns
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2008, 10:51:59 PM »
Glad to be of help BnZ :).  Makes taking the time to post all that stuff worth it!  For some reason my little equation isn't showing up.  I may need to have skuzzy fix it with a different link.

Tango, XO
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Turns
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2008, 12:23:23 AM »
Let me take it a bit further than Tango's excellent post.  The problem (i.e., limitation) with WWII prop planes is that they do not have the power to sustain a maximum performance level turn at corner velocity.  The airplane slows to below corner for all the reasons Tango mentions so...what's the fighter pilot to do?  Use the vertical. 

Let's say you're flying straight and level at 180mph, which happens to be your aircraft's corner velocity.  You're being chased by an enemy considerably faster and you want to reverse 180 degrees in the shortest amount of time with the smallest radius to neutralize his attack.  The answer is a slicing turn.  Overbank in the direction of your turn (start with about 120 degree Angle of Bank (AOB)) and do a nose low (nose pointed below the horizon) slicing turn and convert some of your altitude into kinetic energy to sustain your corner velocity (180mph) as you execute your turn.  How nose low you need to go depends on your plane and starting speed.  A Spit 16 would need a shallower turn than a Hurricane for instance.  If your nose is too low (too much overbank) you will accelerate beyond corner and your turn radius will increase and turn rate decrease (you'll be fighting blackout).  If your nose is too shallow you will not be able to sustain corner velocity and your turn performance will again suffer because you're now riding the lift limit.  You'll need to practice this to figure out where your nose should be relative to the horizon for your best turn.  If you start out below your corner velocity than overbank more so you accelerate in the turn to your corner velocity than take out a little bank angle to sustain it.

Now, for a different situation say you're 250mph with the same 180mph corner velocity.  In this case do an oblique turn and wingover (high yo-yo).  Start to pull your nose up and roll into the turn to a bank angle less than 90 degrees (try starting with 45degress AOB).  You want to be riding just short of blackout while you do this to get the maximum turn rate possible at that point.  How high you pull the nose will depend upon how much above corner velocity you are and is dependant, just as in the first example, on the airplane you're flying.  Because your nose is up, you'll convert some kinetic energy into altitude and pulling max G will slow you down further.  As you get near corner velocity, overbank and pull the nose down below the horizon and complete the turn just as in the first case.  Keep your nose low enough in the second half of the turn to sustain corner velocity.

If you're in a continuous turning fight you can do exactly the same thing provided you have enough altitude.  This is precisely the reason all fights tend to be descending as each fighter turns nose low to sustain their turn rates.

Again, you have to practice this with your chosen ride as each will be somewhat different and your technique will vary according to that and your starting speed.  Remember to play your bank angle.  If you're slowing down overbank more.  If you're speeding up reduce your bank angle.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 12:28:32 AM by Mace2004 »
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