D9 v. La7 Duel

[Yenny]

One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxHN5f3drQI

[Redd]

or you could use you roll rate advantage and take the fight to him.     Might not always win , but probably be a more fun fight for everyone concerned. Duels are a great way of flying you plane to the max and finding out what it can do , rather than just using the tried and proven bnz methods that everyone uses in the MA .  Fight/duel moot or agent some time in the german planes, they really push the envelope of their capabilty, it's impressive.

[Thing]

Very Nice Yenny!!



   Thing

[SlapShot]

I watched the film ... I didn't see any duel in it at all.

What I saw was a La-7 that wanted to fight and a Fw that didn't really want to 'fight' but rather play the Snore-n-Zoom game.

The tactics used in this film would be fine for the MA, but in the DA ... BORING !!!

If I were in the La-7 and you pulled that stuff on me ... I would have augered and looked for someone who really wanted to 'fight'.

If the poor guy in the La-7 would have played the same as you, then there never would have been a 'fight' or at least not one for 20 minutes or so of grabbing alt and posturing ... not my idea of a 'fight/duel' in the DA. The La-7 lost, I think, only because he was wanting/pushing for the 'fight' ... not so much his lack of flying abilities ... we never really got to see if he had any.

Good Fw pilots, in the DA, like Moot / Urchin / JB22 / TBarone, would have taken the fight to the La-7 and tried to use other D9 advantages to beat the La-7 ... and not take 15 to 20 minutes to do it.

[Yenny]

One thing I don't understand is why people consider fighting in the verticle is not a form of fighting. A challenge is a challenge, not every fighter will use the same TnB. If your opponent decide to take the fight in the verticle then you're gunna quit? Sorry that sounds kinda as boring.That wasn't a BnZ that was a spiral climb. The mistake the LA7 did was trying to follow a D9 in climbing above 10k where the D9 climbs better and is faster.

[lengro]

The mistake the LA7 did was trying to follow a D9 in climbing above 10k where the D9 climbs better and is faster.

So, this being a duel - what do you suggest the LA should do instead?

[Yenny]

I was flying the LA and the other person was flying the D9 in the previous flight. I kept my LA7 on the deck, dodge a few BnZ from him and then he lost his E and it was just TnB. La7 > D9 in TnB on the deck of course.

[lengro]

I was flying the LA and the other person was flying the D9 in the previous flight. I kept my LA7 on the deck, dodge a few BnZ from him and then he lost his E and it was just TnB. La7 > D9 in TnB on the deck of course.

So - in this duel - if he was more experienced he should have worked to keep his e until he could bnz a kill?

[Yenny]

I don't know, that was the option I did because I knew above 10k the LA-7 can't keep up w/ the D9. That and the fact that the La7 was 600 yards on the D9's tail on the spiral climbs trying to force the nose up for a shot. So both plane did push its maximum performance.

[SlapShot]

One thing I don't understand is why people consider fighting in the verticle is not a form of fighting. A challenge is a challenge, not every fighter will use the same TnB. If your opponent decide to take the fight in the verticle then you're gunna quit? Sorry that sounds kinda as boring.That wasn't a BnZ that was a spiral climb. The mistake the LA7 did was trying to follow a D9 in climbing above 10k where the D9 climbs better and is faster.

Listen ... your the one that said it was a "Duel", and that was the farthest thing from a "Duel" that I have ever seen or experienced.

One can surely fight in the vertical without extending 2+ K away and gain 4+ K in altitude.

On your first merge, you could have gone vert shortly after the merge gained maybe 1-2K in alt .. immel over the top and reassessed the situation safely and if needed, your could have done a double immel. If you were safe, you could have dropped on him for a quick snapshot immediately and if you missed you could have gone vert again and re-setup your next attack ... but extending as far as you did ... climb for a long as you did ... sorry, but that was not a "duel".

As far as I am concerned, the only mistake that the La-7 did was wanting to 'duel' ... and in the spirit of wanting to 'duel' he pursued you. Anyone that has flown/fought with 6 months or more of flight time under their belt would know exactly what you were doing and how silly it was to try and follow you up ... that is why I surmise that the La-7 really wanted to 'duel' ... and you wanted to play Snore-N-Zoom.

I never "quit" when I am in a "fight" ... if we were "dueling" and you pulled that crap ... then I would auger cause it's quite obvious that you really didn't want to "duel" and I wouldn't want to waste anymore time playing the Bore-N-Zoom game when the object was to "duel".

I have been playing for 6+ years now and I have run into many a good Fw pilot, who could have killed 5 guys in the time it took you to kill the one La-7, and what did you really learn about your airplane ... nothing ? ... you already know that it can out climb an La-7 at x-altitude ... but when you get caught with your pants down by an La-7 in the MA, and you can't use that advantage ... not what do you do ? ... die a quick death ? ... stick stir 'till you eyes pop out of your head ?

Had you stuck around and tried to really push that D9 to it's real flight limits, you might have learned something that you didn't already know. That is what "dueling" is really all about ... not noodle measuring.

Winning teaches nothing ... it just reaffirms what you already know ... losing is where you learn ... taking a chance, trying something new is where the real tricks of the trade are learned, and when taking a chance or trying something new is where you most likely die, but it may also show how to live.

[SlapShot]

So, this being a duel - what do you suggest the LA should do instead?

If you watch the film, the La-7 reverses immediately after the merge ... because he probably considered that when 'dueling', his opponent would also reverse to re-engage for another merge.

If I were the La-7, in the MA, I would have looked out the rear after the merge and when I saw him extend and climb like he did ... I would have continued a straight flight line and put the nose up to slightly gain alt while maintaining my speed.

Now, by the time he got done extending and climbing, he would have been close to 5K away and had an alt advantage. At this point, the decision is up to him if he wants to pursue the fight.

If he did decide to reverse, I would do a long lazy turn back into him, while he was 4K out, to maintain speed and see what he does at the next merge. If he did the same thing, so would I ... keep speed up ... gain a little in altitude.

What you don't want to do is make drastic turns (lose speed) and gain gobs of altitude (thats the D9 domain) ... If he wants to fight me, he is going to have to bring it down to my best alt ... if he doesn't like that, then he will most likely move on to a target that will play his game.

Now, if he continues his lazy attacks and doesn't really pay attention, he will not notice that the La-7 is getting faster on each merge. If the D9, on any pass, does decide to actually press the attack and goes for a guns solution, he will have to slow down ... why does he have to slow down ? ... because I am doing a lazy turning back into him way before he is 2K out and can very easily spoil any gun solution he may come up with if he is going real fast.

So ... if I can get him to "bite" on a couple of successive passes, I have bled his speed and E, all the while I have pretty much maintained mine. At this point, you have to decide when to pounce and if you were patient and have worked him down ... frustrated him ... when you pounce, he will not expect it and he is now yours. Most likely the D9 will nose down perpendicular to the ground, unload for a power dive, and stick stir his arse off hoping that those 20mm shivaks don't find their target.

Mind you, not all Fw pilots fly like that ... NathBDP / Urchin / JB22 are some of the pilots I know that will press the attack so fast, still using the climbing/vert power of the D9 that the La-7 (or whatever) doesn't have time to set up and force the La-7 to turn so often that it will lose speed and E on each pass,and then finally shoot your eyes out as the La-7 is so floppy that it can't get out of the way ... and it will all happen in less than 45 seconds.

[BaldEagl]

One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel.

I totally disagree.

The 190 allows more than a few options against an La.  While the La does hold a turn advantage, the 190 can use it's roll advantage to change direction much more quickly and keep the fight inside a 2K box, whether thats over 10K where the 190 has an edge or on the deck where the La has the edge.

What you showed is one way of beating an La but in the MA's no smart La pilot would have followed you into a sucker rope like that and I have to agree with Slappy that that was not a duel.

I've fought and beat Spits, Hurris, F4U's, F6F's and many others staying inside the box with the 190A-8.  Urchin almost handed me my lunch one day doing so in a 190A-5 against me in a Spit V in the DA.

The only way you'll ever learn to do that is to try it.  Sure you're going to die a lot in the beginning but the joy is in mastering your aircraft and taking it to someone who was confident they had found an easy kill.

Maybe you should have named the post "One way to kill an La-7 with a 190".  It's certainly and without a doubt not one of "the few".

[Yenny]

Trust me I got shot down by LA-7 many times in 1 vs 1 tnb. I'm not talking about new players LA-7, but good players. Do you really think an La-7 can take a D9 on the deck given both pilots are good? The answer is it's a very slim chance. In MA if you're low and slow in a 190, you're already in a bad position. I fly to my plane's advantage. If I'm in a zeke you'll see me turn like crazy. If I'm in a K-4 I'll go vertical and play rope n dope.

In this instance the La-7 followed the D9 up, so my option was to go up. If the La-7 break if off do a split S and pull up for another HO then another scenario could happen. What I'm trying to show is one of the few method a D9 can take on an La-7 when both merge w/ the same E.

Notice the fight lasted about 2 min from merged. The La-7 and the D9 were within 1k from each other almost the entire time after merge

[mechanic]

well said Slap.

below is a very short film for anyone to comment on.  tis complete proof of your above ethos.


Click Me


Who in thier right mind would even attempt this?  
Very few people today, sadly.
We all would enjoy it more if most people left their 'right mind' somewhere else before they logged in to aceshigh.


Yenny, if you enjoyed the fight and so did your buddy then nothing could be wrong with how your flew.
i took the liberty of also uploading a couple of 'BnZ and Rope' films for general viewing.


Tempest Ropes - click me

two very simple ropes demontrate well how an E advantage should be game over for the low one. these are not lucky stalls, we stall ourself and fly with the direct intention of hanging em out to dry and nailing them before they recover.


Tempest Boom and Zoom - click me

a longer film showing some 'smart' flying and keeping the advantage. This is real BnZ. gain the energy advantage, sustain the energy advantage and kill absolutely everything in one or two 'passes'.

this did not take much skill and i did not feel very 'smart'. you may find it prudent to fast forward most of the first 10 minutes unless you are not familiar with gunnery and simple BnZ methods.

now, this is the important bit....

Notice what happens at 10:00 minutes into the sortie. we shoot a 109 down and suddenly realise that a p51 and two spitfires have the jump on us. The key is instantly converting from Posstive Energy flying to using Negative Energy advantages in combating these three enemy who are now higher and faster. any hesitation and we are dead right there. Recognise the new threat and react in the same second.
 If all i did was fly BnZ in tempests i would have been shot down right there. i use BnZ as an appropriate method for certain situations, not as a strict flying style. I was only flying a tempest that day becuase my old joystick was about to die, as can be seen from the jerky gunnery.

In my opinion, boom and zoom is no more a flying style than a split S. Imagine someone who said, i only ever fly split S. that is what you are essentialy doing when you say 'i only fly BnZ'


bat

[Yenny]

Yenny, if you enjoyed the fight and so did your buddy then nothing could be wrong with how your flew.
i took the liberty of also uploading a couple of 'BnZ and Rope' films for general viewing.

Hehe of course, my bud and I went in DA for about 2 hours duking it out in almost every plane we could think off.