D9 v. La7 Duel

[Yenny]

I keep reading in this thread how the combatants never got more than 1.5K away from one another.  That may be true but when one is dragging the other for two minutes it's not a duel.  Dueling means that you REVERSE at 1.5K (give or take .5K) so please don't try to make this sound like you were "fighting in the box".  You were'nt.  Plain and simple.

Now, what Yenny did is a great tactic in the MA.  Yes, It is flying his plane to it's strengths.  It was "smart flying".  It was not, however, what one expects in a duel.  All the vets here seem to agree.  He needed to reverse sooner and keep the pressure on to qualify this as a duel.

I'm also still perplexed by the comment "One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel."  My guess is that if Yenny spent a little time in the TA with a trainer or in the DA with a vet (Yenny in the La, trainer or vet in the D9) he'd find that there are many other ways for a D9 to take on an La and win.

That said, the La should eat the D9 for lunch given equal pilots, but most pilots aren't equal.

Yenny further claims that had the La not followed him, that he would have b'n'z'd the guy until he lost all his E and died.  I'm also guessing that a trainer or a vet would have stripped Yenny of his E doing this relatively quickly (to his demise or until he ran for his life).

I'm still not trying to be harsh, just calling it like I see it.

The point is the La-7 had his gunsight on the D9 for that 2 minute almost. He just didn't have his gunsight through the D9 so he couldn't fire. La-7 was from 400-600 yards from D9. Watch the *.ahf and you'll see it more clearly. It's was just a simple sucker the opponent into thinking he have a shot, then draggin him to where he lost all his E and bag him. If this was La7 v. La7 it woulda be a much different fight, however it's not so ya can't expect it to be like one.

[Urchin]

I'm also still perplexed by the comment "One of the very few methods for a D9 to take on an La7 in a duel."  My guess is that if Yenny spent a little time in the TA with a trainer or in the DA with a vet (Yenny in the La, trainer or vet in the D9) he'd find that there are many other ways for a D9 to take on an La and win.

That said, the La should eat the D9 for lunch given equal pilots, but most pilots aren't equal.

You contradict yourself.  Your second statement is correct, your first statement is nearly worthless.

[BnZ]

I keep reading in this thread how the combatants never got more than 1.5K away from one another.  That may be true but when one is dragging the other for two minutes it's not a duel.  Dueling means that you REVERSE at 1.5K (give or take .5K) so please don't try to make this sound like you were "fighting in the box".  You were'nt.  Plain and simple.

Now, what Yenny did is a great tactic in the MA.  Yes, It is flying his plane to it's strengths.  It was "smart flying".  It was not, however, what one expects in a duel.  All the vets here seem to agree.  He needed to reverse sooner and keep the pressure on to qualify this as a duel.

Note the statement in bold. What a silly and utterly arbitrary splitting of hairs. It is a great tactic, but Yenny
shouldn't have used it? Please!  It was my impression that this was not some sort of "challenge" duel anyway, but training/exploration of the tactics that were possible. (Hopefully it WASN'T some sort of childish "who's the baddest AHII pilot it in the whole damn town thing...) If we truly want a "duel", that would have needed to be co-alt co-e in the SAME airplane.

A quick reversal would have played into the La's strength, rate and radius of turn. The D9 played to his strength, ROC above a certain alt. I am dismayed by this tendency to consider playing to the E-fighters strengths dweebish, while using simple angles tactics is considered, um, "cooler" or what have you, especially considering that the former is the far more difficult of the two propositions. Extend this trend towards its logical extreme, and you have a situation where the Val becomes the most dominant plane in the game.

[PFactorDave]

I am dismayed by this tendency to consider playing to the E-fighters strengths dweebish, while using simple angles tactics is considered, um, "cooler" or what have you,

I've been dismayed by the VERY long list of things and tactics that are so vehemently scorned in this game.  It's to the point that it seems like better then half of the aircraft are "dweeb rides".  Spits...  Lalas...  Runstangs...  etc etc.

In addition, we know that vulching is bad.  Tool shedding is bad.  Furballers are bad.  Picking is bad.  HOing is bad.  Camping is bad.  Astronauts/Alt-Monkies are bad.  Lanc-Stukas are bad...  Score watchers are bad...  Ramming is bad...  etc etc.

So apparently, the only "acceptable" way to play AH2 is to fly around until you meet up with another person in an "acceptable" aircraft.  Co-alt, of course.  Then proceed to fight without any other outside influence.

I've come to the conclusion that I don't really care what any of the so-called "good sticks" or forum warriors think about any of it.  I've developed my set of "AH ethics" that I will live by (and die by...  a lot...)  To do otherwise runs smack dab into the middle of the very paradox that you just pointed out BnZ.

 

[PFactorDave]

I've been dismayed by the VERY long list of things and tactics that are so vehemently scorned in this game.  It's to the point that it seems like better then half of the aircraft are "dweeb rides".  Spits...  Lalas...  Runstangs...  etc etc.

In addition, we know that vulching is bad.  Tool shedding is bad.  Furballers are bad.  Picking is bad.  HOing is bad.  Camping is bad.  Astronauts/Alt-Monkies are bad.  Lanc-Stukas are bad...  Score watchers are bad...  Ramming is bad...  etc etc.

So apparently, the only "acceptable" way to play AH2 is to fly around until you meet up with another person in an "acceptable" aircraft.  Co-alt, of course.  Then proceed to fight without any other outside influence in a closely prescribed manner from which you may not deviate.

I've come to the conclusion that I don't really care what any of the so-called "good sticks" or forum warriors think about any of it.  I've developed my set of "AH ethics" that I will live by (and die by...  a lot...)  To do otherwise runs smack dab into the middle of the very paradox that you just pointed out BnZ.

 

[SlapShot]

It was my impression that this was not some sort of "challenge" duel anyway, but training/exploration of the tactics that were possible.

The title of the thread ... D9 v. La7 Duel ... seemed to imply that it was a duel <go figure>.

Once that was called out onto the carpet, it was then changed to a "training/exploration of the tactics that were possible" scenario.

[Yenny]

The title of the thread ... D9 v. La7 Duel ... seemed to imply that it was a duel <go figure>.

Once that was called out onto the carpet, it was then changed to a "training/exploration of the tactics that were possible" scenario.

what is ur definition of a duel slapshot? full out on the deck tnb? because if so zeke > everything else. There are more dimension in acm then just horizontal.

[mechanic]

what is ur definition of a duel slapshot? full out on the deck tnb? because if so zeke > everything else. There are more dimension in acm then just horizontal.

bring your zeke to the DA i will beat it in 10 different planes. you can use an energy manouver in a duel, but it should mean game over or you are just running away upwards.

I am dismayed by this tendency to consider playing to the E-fighters strengths dweebish, while using simple angles tactics is considered, um, "cooler" or what have you.......

There is nothing dweeby about using 'possitive energy advantage' tactics if you can also convert to 'turn fighting' when you need to. Not convert to 'run like herd of gazzel chased by single lioness' tactics. (hey lets all run together then she might only get a few of us, hopefully not me)

..... especially considering that the former is the far more difficult of the two propositions.

Absolute rubbish.

Extend this trend towards its logical extreme, and you have a situation where the Val becomes the most dominant plane in the game.

most ridiculous thing anyone said all day.



'E fighting' and 'turn fighting' are both methods of dogfighting. learning to E fight is very simple. The criteria is gaining and maintaining a constant energy advantage... and that is all it is. If that is all you do in aceshigh you are not learning 'dogfighting' anymore than if you spent every sortie mastering the Split S move.

please dont take offence, but you have lost the plot now. After trying to tell me that the 2 on 1 film i posted is no more than Yenny's marathon BnZ makes you seem fanatical rather than rational.  If that was your average BnZ fanatic in teh mosquito i expect they would have wasted 2 seconds wondering if they could outrun the A8 then died or more likely augered.

It is almost a certain conclusion that anyone who can knife fight well has already mastered energy fighting and the boom n zoom move.

There is no real stigma with people E fighting, it just really burns the people who cannot do anything but E fight when it is pointed out to them.


with respect.

[Yenny]

^_^ remember it's the plane and pilot. Good pilot with a below average plane can have a tough time against a novice pilot in a super plane.

[Yenny]

bring your zeke to the DA i will beat it in 10 different planes. you can use an energy manouver in a duel, but it should mean game over or you are just running away upwards.

Under condition as listed, TnB only ^_^ can't go vertical. Which is the assumption of A LOT of you guys have for dueling. Get real though, in a duel once you pass the merge, it's game on. Maybe do your best not to HO after merge, but other then that, it's fair game.

[SlapShot]

^_^ remember it's the plane and pilot. Good pilot with a below average plane can have a tough time against a novice pilot in a super plane.

My FM2 has dispelled this myth too many times to count.

My definition of a duel ? ... Two guys in same or different planes that have decided to aggressively fight one another ... YMMV

Aggressively does not equate to only TnB. You can aggressively BnZ.

Yenny ... I am not trying to poke you in the eye. Just trying to broaden your scope/horizons.

Take your Zeke or any plane against Ack-Ack in his P-38 ... co-alt ... co-E. You won't have a chance and it won't take him 5 minutes to dispense you to the tower either. I only mention Ack-Ack because I fly with him alot and he doesn't primarily TnB the P-38, but at the same time, he doesn't bore ya to death either. Batfink can do it all too.

Widewing said it all ... "Pin them, bleed them, kill them" ... far from ... "Put them to sleep, kill them".

[mechanic]

Under condition as listed, TnB only ^_^ can't go vertical. Which is the assumption of A LOT of you guys have for dueling. Get real though, in a duel once you pass the merge, it's game on. Maybe do your best not to HO after merge, but other then that, it's fair game.

please yenny, the hole is so deep if you keep digging any further you going to start some kind of earthquake.
you simply have absolutely no idea what TnB is. TnB is E fighting refined to perfection with no wasted energy on top.
you are new maybe, but not stupid. please do not expect me to believe you think TnB means flat turns on the deck only.
oh lord.

[BnZ]

Um, sorry, no mechanic, you forgot one point. Getting and keeping an e advantage while actually getting a shot in. Which involves constantly deciding how much E to sacrifice/conserve at a given juncture, so you can get the proper position and lead for a shot...sounds an awful lot like convertng instantly to angles tactics doesn't it, albeit for a brief instant. Sure, a 109 can climb away from a Hurri all day long...it is actually shooting the thing with a good pilot inside evading that is the hard part.

You must know you are exagerating the relative ease involved in E fighting vrs turnNburn fighting just abit...

Do you think I have 0 duelling time under my belt? Winning a SpitvSpit is ten times easier than trying to get a good shot in on the same guy in a Spit while flying a FW-190.  I can in fact knife-fight a little bit. Ask Lambo or Creton about it sometime. The time I have spent at this is how I am so certain that you can be able to beat a pilot most of the time in a matched-planes t'n'b duel, yet still have a rough time trying to actually get him using E-fighting in a less maneuverable aircraft. I don't know why in the world you would think one has a tougher job in a ride that can pull in behind and saddle the opponent's ride than in one that can't, and must resort to E-tactics to stay behind and get shots.

 Apparently you still think I'm confusing energy fighting with making one pass at 500 mph and then running off, which of course anyone CAN actually do, although they tend to make an alarming number of craters.

All this talk of "aggression"...its a tool okay? Its purpose is to kill the opponent. If you have the E-advantage but blow it through too much aggression, that is as bad as loosing the shot through too little. Refering again  to Yenny's film, if your eyes are watering from bordeom in 2 1/2 minutes, you must not fish much.

"If that was your average BnZ fanatic in teh mosquito i expect they would have wasted 2 seconds wondering if they could outrun the A8 then died or more likely augered."

You are telling me there are people flying about, who, seeing an airplane decidely inferior in turn rate and radius closing on their six, will get up and go get a coke instead of trying to get out of the way? Good to know, I doubt they are many though. Note I never said dealing with the pair of 190s was easy...your SA, reaction time, and gunnery is enviable. I just think shooting down a co-alt co-e La7 in a D9 below 10K presents an equally thorny ACM problem. Depending on how much the opposition cooperates of course.

[Widewing]

Yenny, watch the La-5 film I posted earlier in the thread. You'll see flat turning on the deck, you'll see energy maneuvering in the vertical. What you won't see is the other guy have time to catch his breath. The other guy was flying a fighter that turns much smaller circles than the La-5. It got him nothing. Why? Because, there are simply ways to counter that advantage (more than counter it).

My regards,

Widewing

[mechanic]

BnZ you are all over the place. i cannot keep up. I fly a mosquito alot i know about E fighting please trust me.
i dont think you understand where i'm coming from at all and i am replying to statements that seem to have no relevance to the next post of yours.

It is clear you feel scorned and your entire AH ethos under attack. read my posts through the thread to you and watch your irrational devotion  drive me round in circles no matter what i say. I dont think that is your intention.

The point is, If you are the kind of guy that puts his nose down and runs like hell when it is his time to die just because he has a few kllls to land every single sortie then you will have to deal with being called names for being an internet wuss.

If the odds of the battle are suicidal just imagine the glory of winning and die like a virtual fighter pileit should