General Gun Discussion

[Xasthur]

Texas law allows him to use force to stop the burglars, and deadly force if he believes using lesser force exposes himself to possible harm. Applicable statutes (see 9.42 2, 3, 9.43 2B):

The whole point is that using no force what so ever would have left him in no danger at all.

The shooter exposed himself to danger by confronting them. As fas as I'm concerned, Mr Horn was the aggressor in the situation. Sure, the other guys were doing the wrong thing but Horn confronted them, not the other way around.

[CAP1]

That provides no link to coming back with weapons to kill. I'm not calling you out to be a bastid or anything, I'm just saying that you're talking baseless watermelon at the moment.  

Toad nailed it. Even if the guys did approach him they certainly changed their mind and tried to high-tail it.  They were shot in the back, he didn't shoot them as they tried to attack him.

In fact,the information available states that the third shot you hear on the call was the kill shot on the second rat as he ran away. That's execution, not self-defense, however you look at it.

ya, it could be baseless, but like i said...i'm doing like others in here and throwing another ""what if"" out there.
it might have happened that way or it might not have. we'll never know. the important thing is that this guy sent a message to criminals....mainly don't come eff around in my neighborhood.

as for the third shot? it may have been. or it may have been that he was so stressed out and wound up, that he just kept going. he did sound fiarly well stressed when he came back o the phone. in the stress of the moment, he could've realy thought that #2 was gonna come back for him.....again, we'll never know. but.....at least 2 more rat bastages off the streets.

i'd still like to see something from his neighbors. in particular the one whose house was being robbed. is there any good reason we haven't seen that yet/?

<<S>>

[CAP1]

The whole point is that using no force what so ever would have left him in no danger at all.

Sure, the other guys were doing the wrong thing but Horn confronted them, not the other way around.

as well he should have. there should be more people in the country willing to risk stopping criminals. the police cannot do it without our help.

<<S>>

[Jackal1]

If he had stayed in his house and shot them had they entered HIS house, I'd have no problem with it at all.

That`s what is wrong with society as a whole now. People don`t get involved to stop BS such as this. Time for crap like this to stop. The police are not personal body guards , nor or they personal protectors of your private property. Responsibility falls to us initially.  Hiding in the closet is not the Texas way and certainly not that of a friend and neighbor. The cats knew what they were doing and the risk they were taking. They lost!

Is there any evidence that they posed an imminent danger to him as they entered his yard?

Evidently there is . He was no billed. When they entered his yard they were trespassing. While they were on the neighbors property they were trespassing. It was obvious what they were doing. There is not even a question on that.
They certainly weren`t coming over to pick up the "Welcome Wagon" package.

Were any weapons found on the bodies?

What does weapons have to do with it? Have you seen the picture of this guy?
He couldn`t defend against one I expect, not to mention two.
They were trespassing in the act of a crime. Good enough for me.

None of us has all the information but it seems reasonable to me that had Horn stayed in his house they'd either have gone on and left or died entering his home.

Yeah, he could have just ignored them, let them steal what they wanted and been on their way to their next break in. Not acceptable in my books.  It is also known that cats such as these get braver and more aggressive as time passes and as long as they get by with their crimes. By Texas law, he had every right to do what he did. I applaud his actions.
They bought the ticket, they took the ride.

[Hornet33]

as well he should have. there should be more people in the country willing to risk stopping criminals. the police cannot do it without our help.

<<S>>

Exactly!!! Way to many people in this country will see a crime being committed, and as long as it's NOT being committed against them, they just look the other way because they don't want to get involved. At most they MIGHT call the police but even that is doubtfull.

Mr Horn saw a crime being committed against his neighbors property. A neighbor he knew to be out of town and being a good neighbor he did what he had to do to stop the criminals.

Yeah he could have stayed inside and no one would have gotten hurt. Instead he decided to act and I applaud him for doing so. Maybe if more people started looking out for their neighbors and get involved when they see a crime being committed this country wouldn't be going down the crapper like it is.

[Xasthur]

Yeah he could have stayed inside and no one would have gotten hurt. Instead he decided to act and I applaud him for doing so. Maybe if more people started looking out for their neighbors and get involved when they see a crime being committed this country wouldn't be going down the crapper like it is.

You're labouring under the assumption that the people who will take that action aren't all complete morons. The fact that this happened at all is a clear indication that this is most certainly not the case.

One episode of the Simpsons covers this pretty well. 

[Speed55]

You're labouring under the assumption that the people who will take that action aren't all complete morons. 

If joe horn is a moron in your eyes, then i'd rather take the side of a moron over an imbecile... or 2.   

[Carrel]

carrel... don't get all hissy fit on us..

lazs

LOL, I'm not- I just realized this thread is like playing cards with my sister's kids. We don't play bridge, or canasta- we play "go fish."

Sheeesh- look at the title of this thread- "Another win for self defense"....about two guys who got shot in the back. If the author doesn't know what self defense is, and the Junior Sheeple don't know what self defense is, then how can we discuss it?

Pointless.

CAP1, do you have any threes?

[Toad]

Speak for yourself. Texans have decided otherwise (and lots of us are gun owners )

I always speak for myself alone.

I stand by what I've posted in this thread.

[Toad]

That`s what is wrong with society as a whole now. People don`t get involved to stop BS such as this. Time for crap like this to stop. The police are not personal body guards , nor or they personal protectors of your private property. Responsibility falls to us initially.  Hiding in the closet is not the Texas way and certainly not that of a friend and neighbor. The cats knew what they were doing and the risk they were taking. They lost!

Follow this to it's logical extension. Horn didn't know what if anything they had taken from the neighbor. Would you kill a man for breaking your neighbor's window?

Would you kill a man for stealing a neighbor's TV set?

Would you kill a man for stealing a neighbor's garden hoe?

Would you kill a man for stealing a neighbor's loaf of bread?

Where the hell do you guys draw the line at life vs property? Would you kill a man for stealing a neighbor's stick of Doublemint?

When they entered his yard they were trespassing. While they were on the neighbors property they were trespassing.

Would you kill a man for walking on your yard without permission? For trespassing?

 

It was obvious what they were doing. There is not even a question on that.

No, it is not obvious. Yes there is a question. What did they steal? Do you know for sure they stole any item? They did apparently break and enter but I've seen nothing other than that. Do you know for sure they threatened Horn? I haven't seen anything proving that. Do you know for sure if they aggressively move towards him or did he aggressively move to block their exit path?

There's a shirtload of stuff that is not known at this point.

What does weapons have to do with it?

It relates to the threat. With no weapons it's much harder to see this as righteous self-defense. As I said, the question is open on whether they were just trying to leave and he intercepted them or whether they moved to confront him. Weapons would make the latter more plausible.

Yeah, he could have just ignored them, let them steal what they wanted and been on their way to their next break in.

Except that he did not ignore them. He called 911 and the cops arrived pretty much right after he shot them. It's quite possible that calling 911 was all that was necesary for the cops to catch them.

 

By Texas law, he had every right to do what he did.

I realize it was technically legal. IMO, it wasn't moral.

Tell me, if some minority kid runs up, grabs a pot of your petunias off the front porch and takes off are you going to kill him? You'd be legal in Texas you know.




[/quote]

[SkyRock]

Had he done that in Australia he'd be sentenced to life in prison. No one would have given a watermelon that they were black and no one would mourn their death but he would still be in prison.

I'm not particularly fond of humanity in general, to be honest, but in order to effectively live with the plague of rats called people some laws need to be observed. Premeditated killing, regardless of the 'worth' of the people being killed cannot be allowed. How long will it be before a loved one gets mistaken for a thief and shot where they stand? How long will be before people start killing people they don't like and staging it as a theft? "It's ok officer, he stole my car stereo".

You're all putting yourselves on a slippery slope by praising the murder of fleeing thieves. People cannot be trusted to make decisions in heated situations. People are, by and large, impossibly stupid and the second you start allowing these idiots to kill on a whim it will be you who will suffer when the only people you've cared about start getting killed in 'mistaken' circumstances.

Like I've said... I agree that these guys were scum and they were entirely the masters of their fate but to think, even for a moment, that people should be allowed to execute people they see stealing other people's crap.... well, excuse my rudeness, but that's f-king ridiculous. The naivety of entertaining that idea astounds me.

If you want thieves dead start asking for the death sentence for thieves. If you want to stop illegals from being deported and coming back again to re-offend introduce the death sentence for illegals who commit crimes in your country. I wonder how many of you would subscribe to a ruthless nation like that? Instead you would prefer on-the-spot executions performed by pissed off, old guys? Let's use a little logic here instead of letting emotive responses dictate our opinions.

If you break into someones home, you should be shot dead without questions.  If one doesn't want to be killed, then avoid going into someones home without permission, very simple.

[Xasthur]

Again with the lack of forethought. Surely we can get past the fun and satisfaction of saying "Yeah, let's kill all these motherfkrs when they break into my house" and consider the consequences of allowing this to become a widespread practice?

Or is that too complex?

[CAP1]

CAP1, do you have any threes?

 

go fish!

[Hornet33]

You're labouring under the assumption that the people who will take that action aren't all complete morons. The fact that this happened at all is a clear indication that this is most certainly not the case.

One episode of the Simpsons covers this pretty well. 
(Image removed from quote.)

Yeah your right, I wouldn't want you getting involved if all you have to back your statement up with is a Simpsons episode.

[Kaw1000]

Its quite evedent that many of you have not be victims in this type of thing. How many times
have guys like these, gotten away from a crime and comback to steal, kill, and rape again? Desperate people do desperate things....these guys
were no good...if they would have gotten away, or even arrested....they would do the same thing again,
maybe taking a life next time.

Put yourself in the shoes of people that have lost loved ones because of guys like these...you should
think differently about what Mr. Horn did. He just saved some other innocent family...maybe yours..from alot
of heart ache.

 The problem in todays society is the bleeding heart liberals go to light on this type of crime....and the crooks know it.
Over populated jails makes stealing a minor infraction and a slap on the wrist. so what happens..they do it again and again and again.

I read the othe day that there are 500 and something death row inmates in Kalifornia....how much does it cost us to keep these
looney tunes in jail?? Millions...And lberal Kalifornia wont kill them after they ruined many inocent lives.