Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are

[uptown]

  thats what I call a pick

[Yarbles]

"Paragraphs"

Too right if he does it again he should be banned

[Yarbles]

If you fly at lower alt with less E and get "clubbed" you learn what exactly?

Dont think anyone has really answered this. Do honourable experienced pilots atack their newb enemies in this state or do they float down until they are co alt and e before beggining the "Duel"

What is the point of score if no one takes any notice of it? There seems to be some sort of concensus here that people shouldnt go after score, shouldnt enter into what are percieved to be unfair fights or seek advantages before the real fight starts and every fight should try to approximate to a "duel". I think this partially reflects a simple bias as in "when i win it was a fair fight when i lose it was a dishonourable cheat"

If you have a "Gentlemens" club going here where where you aspire to this collectively good for you. From the outside it can look like a heard of sheep queing up to agree with one another with very little (with a couple of acceptions) attempt to see an alternative viewpoint.

I would like to point out because someone has learnt something a certain way does not mean it was the only or best way and that different people learn in different ways. P

People say they want new people to learn but they dont seem interested in any ways that might make it easier. "The Dogmatic I did it this way, it was hard but I got through it and its the only way" approach to anything is usually over simplified or just wrong in any area of life.   

[Yarbles]

I think you guys are being a bit harsh.  I have actually taken this advice and put it to practical use in other areas of my life.  For instance, I am a huge MMA fan, and have always thought it would be great to get to fight in the Octagon, but knowing my age, physical conditioning, and overall work ethic would be a factor in my failure I never dared to dream... Until now!  I joined a gym that teaches ju-jitsu, kickboxing, judo etc.  So last night I'm at the gym, there a few guys sparring and rolling around on the mats.  I'm just kind of hanging out on the fringes, jumping a little rope, doing some stretches, basically waiting for my time to strike.  Knowing I am no match for these young guys physically, I must use my intellectual advantage.  Then I see it, one of the Behemoth's pulls the other to the ground.  I think to myself "WWWD? (what would waldron do?)".  The answer is obvious.  Without hesitation I fling my 5lb.
dumbells to the side and swoop in for a drive by headkicking!  Or, as I like to think of it, a perfectly time B&Z.  Victory is mine! The good news is, the doctor said I will make a full recovery and I was refunded all of my gym dues! I RULE!

I bet this is really funny if your 14

[moot]

"If you fly at lower alt with less E and get "clubbed" you learn what exactly?" Dont think anyone has really answered this.

SA, defensive acm, counter-attacks, sharpened gunnery/reduced hesitation.

Do honourable experienced pilots atack their newb enemies in this state or do they float down until they are co alt and e before beggining the "Duel"

Yep..  Anytime it's a 1:1 and there's good enough chances that it won't be interrupted.  As far as "honourable" goes, that's pretty subjective and arguable.  One guilty (if you can call it that much) pleasure I have is, rather than let the fight go on as long as it could, killing anyone who uses the cheap gears trick to airbrake.

f you have a "Gentlemens" club going here where where you aspire to this collectively good for you. From the outside it can look like a heard of sheep queing up to agree with one another with very little (with a couple of acceptions) attempt to see an alternative viewpoint.

You're kidding right?  At least a few of us pass up almost every opportunity to pat others on the back, instead dissenting every chance they get..

I would like to point out because someone has learnt something a certain way does not mean it was the only or best way and that different people learn in different ways

As far as having fun, there's no arguing it, not unless you get down to the exact psychological mechanics of it.  As far as dogfighting goes, there's some pretty clear and well defined rules to it, e.g. you won't learn it best by avoiding any chance to get knee deep into it.

People say they want new people to learn but they dont seem interested in any ways that might make it easier. "The Dogmatic I did it this way, it was hard but I got through it and its the only way" approach to anything is usually over simplified or just wrong in any area of life.

That same nonsense again. The only way to test a theory, is to put it in practice.  Running away from fights, or "BnZing" without reverses unless the target is at zero or negative speed are a very poor excuse for trial by fire/practical confirmation.  The same way you don't actualy learn a martial art unless you've practiced it "full load".  What military force sends its soldiers to action with only theoretical training?
You could argue that it's a valid way to have fun, but that's beside the point, and it's certainly not the advice to give to any and all new players to this air combat game. Especialy not together with the rest of Waldron's "advice".

[Yarbles]

[quote author=moot link=topic=237571.  Running away from fights, or "BnZing" without reverses unless the target is at zero or negative speed are a very poor excuse for trial by fire/practical confirmation.  The same way you don't actualy learn a martial art unless you've practiced it "full load".  What military force sends its soldiers to action with only theoretical training?

[/quote]

Forget Waldron for a minute here. Its not all or nothing i.e. avoid all fights unlesss you are sure of winning and bnz once and run in all cases. I think ive made that point already. Again though if you bnz it works best if you are close in speed if you are charging in at 400mph+ and there at say 200mph htesr hard to set up and you need excellent markmanship.

These debates are most valid when people dont take extreme positions. What is appartent is that there is a scism between books like "in pursuit" and the "party line" in this forum. Allot of Waldron said matches what I have read and relates to my own experiences. My k/d went form a low of 1/25 to a high earlier this week of 1/1. It improved when i started haveing meaningfull battles which I understood. If I start with the advantage and see how someone reverses I learn if they dont I kill them. The fight can end at high and low alt etc and its working for me so it might work for others. It works best at this stage where I start on equal term but ideally with the advantage.

Today i fought someone at co alt with co e who is ranked 75 and I am about 1700. He dove away after a couple of turns and I chased him down and stayed on his 6 and got him. What I learned I learned from bnz holding on in pursuit longer and longer and that has turned into kills. Its been fun. I dont have to keep upping and getting shot down over and over and over again to get better. I admit I have very few defensive moves against similar planes at this stage but that will develop as well.

I dont understand what the problem is with this approach it is working and I am learning and I am picking

I may not always do it that way but the response to Waldron sounds very narrow minded.

[uptown]

Look, just play the game the way you want and have fun. Fight, run, BnZ, Ho, milk and toolshed. The game is what you make of it. Some just want a little bit more out of it then others.

[Yarbles]

Look, just play the game the way you want and have fun. Fight, run, BnZ, Ho, milk and toolshed. The game is what you make of it. Some just want a little bit more out of it then others.

Lol if I post that as advice on this forumn .

BTW I am trying to get more out of the game for more people. I think if I had followed the just keep upping and dying advice given here I would have given up a long time ago. I am not saying its not good advice but it doesnt appeal to everyone and Ive come along way doing it by picking and bnzing as well as reading and getting a trainer and hopefully others can do the same though if you do dont mention it on here or

[ODBAL]

Look, just play the game the way you want and have fun. Fight, run, BnZ, Ho, milk and toolshed. The game is what you make of it. Some just want a little bit more out of it then others.

Nah, that makes too much sense.

[ODBAL]

I bet this is really funny if your 14

It wasn't meant to be funny, it's a true story.

[SlapShot]

Forget Waldron for a minute here. Its not all or nothing i.e. avoid all fights unlesss you are sure of winning and bnz once and run in all cases. I think ive made that point already. Again though if you bnz it works best if you are close in speed if you are charging in at 400mph+ and there at say 200mph htesr hard to set up and you need excellent markmanship.

These debates are most valid when people dont take extreme positions. What is appartent is that there is a scism between books like "in pursuit" and the "party line" in this forum. Allot of Waldron said matches what I have read and relates to my own experiences. My k/d went form a low of 1/25 to a high earlier this week of 1/1. It improved when i started haveing meaningfull battles which I understood. If I start with the advantage and see how someone reverses I learn if they dont I kill them. The fight can end at high and low alt etc and its working for me so it might work for others. It works best at this stage where I start on equal term but ideally with the advantage.

Today i fought someone at co alt with co e who is ranked 75 and I am about 1700. He dove away after a couple of turns and I chased him down and stayed on his 6 and got him. What I learned I learned from bnz holding on in pursuit longer and longer and that has turned into kills. Its been fun. I dont have to keep upping and getting shot down over and over and over again to get better. I admit I have very few defensive moves against similar planes at this stage but that will develop as well.

I dont understand what the problem is with this approach it is working and I am learning and I am picking

I may not always do it that way but the response to Waldron sounds very narrow minded.

I think the point that most of us are trying to make, is while you are in the learning/beginning stages of playing this game, score is the last thing you should worry about and most of all don't worry about dying ... it is an integral part of learning.

Yeah it sucks to die, but those of us that are voicing displeasure over Waldron's advise for newcomers are only speaking from longevity and experience. Avoiding fights ... fleeing when you loose the advantage ... will do nothing for learning the techniques needed to survive when one can't flee or avoid a fight.

BnZ is a valid tactic, but when in that mode, and you make a mistake, wouldn't it be nice to be able to wrangle yourself out of the pickle rather than fly straight and level ... stick stir hoping that you won't get nailed.

I'll tell you about one guy that has been around for some time now and flys the P51 pretty much exclusively. He can BnZ and pick your bones clean before you even know what hit you, but if you manage to get him cornered in his Mustang ... you might as well have cornered a Badger. You will think that he magically transformed that Mustang into a Spitfire ... and if you make one mistake, he will send you to your virtual maker in a hearbeat.

That is the sign of a guy that has taken his Mustang into numerous situations that weren't only to his advantage and didn't run in fear of dying. He pushes the Mustang to every bleeding edge of the Mustang's envelope ... there is only one way to know those bleeding edges ... and it's not from avoiding fights and being afraid to die, or worrying about score.

His in-game name is ...   SkatSr ... find him and watch him fight that Mustang or find him and fight him ... you will be amazed.

Here is his score from last months tour ...

Kills per Death - 5.46
Kills per Sortie - 3.05
Kills per Hour of Flight - 9.11
Kills Hit Percentage - 11.54

His fighter rank was 14.

[The Fugitive]

Today i fought someone at co alt with co e who is ranked 75 and I am about 1700. He dove away after a couple of turns and I chased him down and stayed on his 6 and got him. What I learned I learned from bnz holding on in pursuit longer and longer and that has turned into kills. Its been fun. I dont have to keep upping and getting shot down over and over and over again to get better. I admit I have very few defensive moves against similar planes at this stage but that will develop as well.

What you should learn about this fight is the guy blew his advantage so he dove out. As you started closing, he had no option because he was afraid of dieing to try something. It also shows you that he is most likely a BnZer type fighter, and its all he does. He got his 75 ranking by cherry pickin his target, or only attacking with an advantage, and then runs when he looses that advantage. If thats the only way you learn to fly, then people like you would have the patience for the long chase will kill them.

On the other hand had he dove out, and got you real fast, and chopped his throttle a bit to drag you in closer, then just as the drool is running down your chin antisapating the kill, he chops the throttle all the way rudders hard and throws the plane into a tight barrel roll. You just about to go to guns see him slide off to the side as you go flying by, and by the time you find him in a view again, tracers are all over the place and your loosing parts of your plane.

Learn a few tricks by "trying" a few tricks. You might have more fun !

[moot]

Forget Waldron for a minute here. Its not all or nothing i.e. avoid all fights unlesss you are sure of winning and bnz once and run in all cases. I think ive made that point already.

I can't recall where you said anything but paraphrase and insistently defend Waldron as some imaginary scapegoat here.

Again though if you bnz it works best if you are close in speed if you are charging in at 400mph+ and there at say 200mph htesr hard to set up and you need excellent markmanship.

That depends on the planes and the exact circumstances. There's no single minimalistic fits-all rule of thumb you can tell beginning players and expect them to synthesize everything else from on their own, without a ton of trial and error.  Except that practice makes perfect.  Perfect timid flying is still timid flying.

These debates are most valid when people dont take extreme positions.

Waldron ought to start by understanding that.

What is appartent is that there is a scism between books like "in pursuit" and the "party line" in this forum. Allot of Waldron said matches what I have read and relates to my own experiences.

Read in WWII books and experienced in a game? The argument isn't about whether you die or not, it's about the fight that happens before that.  You can RTB or not, or fly fast or slow, or high or low, but that's not the point.

My k/d went form a low of 1/25 to a high earlier this week of 1/1.

Says nothing about the quality of the fights.

It improved when i started haveing meaningfull battles which I understood. If I start with the advantage and see how someone reverses I learn if they dont I kill them. The fight can end at high and low alt etc and its working for me so it might work for others. It works best at this stage where I start on equal term but ideally with the advantage.

Doesn't say anything about the quality of the fight, nor how timidly you fight, tho it does sound like you got some kick out of it.

Today i fought someone at co alt with co e who is ranked 75 and I am about 1700.

Rank is meaningless here.

He dove away after a couple of turns and I chased him down and stayed on his 6 and got him. What I learned I learned from bnz holding on in pursuit longer and longer and that has turned into kills. Its been fun.

Fun, yes, but it says nothing about the quality of the dogfighting, of the ACM and tactics and how well they were executed.

I dont have to keep upping and getting shot down over and over and over again to get better.

Strawman, and wrong even so.  Higher frequency of any iteration will yield correct adaptation sooner.

I admit I have very few defensive moves against similar planes at this stage but that will develop as well.

By shying away from the fight that provides the improvement?  That's the tendency we're talking about here. It's not about flying any particular variant or 'style', it's about flying that style effectively.  If you need to fly timidly, the "style" is wrong or at least very ineffective and makes for a dull fight --> no fun.
Teach this to new players and you've peed in the pool.

I dont understand what the problem is with this approach it is working and I am learning and I am picking

See above. It's cheap. 

I may not always do it that way but the response to Waldron sounds very narrow minded.

Because Waldron's "advice" is even more narrow: encompasses a tiny fraction of the possibilities in the game, does it incorrectly, and tries to mislead new players into believing it's right.

[Yarbles]

Moot, Slapshot and Fugitive.

I have to relate what is being said to my own experiences and my motivations in the game particularly motivation. Score is a tangible (but questionable) measure of progress.

My experience is you do have to learn skills to improve your score but what you say is intrigeing and I thankyou for having the patience and taking the trouble to expand on what are obviously shared values in the game.

So.

I think to want to take the trouble to get where you think you are you have to have a pretty clear idea of where you are going. This seems to be a highly skilled pilot who has mastered ACMs, Situational awareness and their particular ride. I am not sure how this relates to what is going on around us in the game which is a 3 way battle between the countries as well as a shifting furball arena. I guess you are looking for situations where you can excel and stretch yourselves while hopefully learning more.

I want to serve my squad and country as they are my affinity groups in the game. I want to be able to hunt people down and kill them (virtually of course) for the thrill and to massage my ego.

I am happy with my progress and how I got here and dont feel as though I have wasted any time. The main point I take form all of this is the timid style I have developed probably relates to my lack of confidence in my defensive abilities as I dont think I can mix it and reverse with someone who knows what they are doing. I think this necessitates learning the moves and then how to apply them. I dont think this naturally (for me anyway) follows from throwing yourself at everything that comes along. In a nutshell more training leading to more skills to apply when things look like they are not going my way.

I dont see any essential contradiction with this and Waldronism. Ok he is not giving what for you is the big picture, but you are assuming with a passion that sometimes seems to border on the ranting obsession that everyone wants the same thing out of the game.

I would like to be No1 Fighter Pilot for a tour. I spoke to Bruv about it and he explained that allot of this is some distance from the quality experience some of you are seeking but it is a measureble goal and once achived for me it gives a certain credability.

You have reached a point where you are defining your own standards but for many this is going to seem a tad nebulous and I wonder if you new exactly what you were after when you started or can even remember

[SlapShot]

You have reached a point where you are defining your own standards but for many this is going to seem a tad nebulous and I wonder if you new exactly what you were after when you started or can even remember

When I first started in Aces High (back in the AH I days), I joined a squad called the MAW (Marine Air Wing). At that time, it was one of the premiere base taking squads. I was the CO of the MAW 3rd Wing and as part of the whole, we were very good at what we did ... taking down a base and all it's non-moving objects ... but when challenged, air to air, I was constantly getting my arse handed to me.

I got tired of that and sought out a "fighter" squadron and was lucky enough to be given a spot with the 13th TAS. Their montra was "it's all about the fight" and from flying with these guys and the squads that the bumped heads with, I learned a great deal about air to air combat ... mind you, I died alot, but I kept coming back for more and eventually, from in squad dueling, fighting in furballs, watching countless films from some of the "best", I turned it around and getting my arse handed to me constantly ... became less constant.

One of the squads that the 13th TAS loved to bump heads with were the Blue Knights. One of the guys in the Blue Knights that I constantly went after was Leviathn (arguably one of the best pilots in all of Aces High). He consistently kicked my arse (and still does), but it was those constant arse kickings and watching the films after the arse kickings was the most valuable resource ... for me ... to improve my Air to Air fighting skills.

Eventually, the old-guard of the 13th TAS kinda faded into obscurity due to the change in gameplay for AH II ... so I sought out a position with the Blue Knights and was lucky enough to get a spot.

I am far from "one of the best" ... but if you do run into me, and really want to fight, you will know you have been in a fight, and will have to be on your "A" game to win the fight.