Author Topic: rolling scissors  (Read 5943 times)

Offline Yenny

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2008, 12:17:48 PM »
barrel roll and rolling scissor is similiar yet very different ! s1 explain plz I dunno how to =/
E .· ` ' / ·. F
Your tears fuel me.
Noobing since tour 96
Ze LuftVhiners Alliance - 'Don't Focke Wulf Us!'

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2008, 12:44:42 PM »
After doing some more reading, your are right that we are executing barrel rolls. Sorry for the confusion that I might have created for that.

As far as scissors ...

Scissors:

"The scissors is the natural outcome of a successful break which has forced the attacker to overshoot. It consists of a series of reversals to get behind the attacker by forcing him out in front."

Scissors is an "outcome" ... of a defensive move ... once it is initiated, both are trying to get behind each other so it becomes both defensive and offensive at the same time.

Any rolling scissors that I have been involved in seems that both of us are trying to spoil a guns solution (defensive) and at the same time, trying to gain position behind the other guy and not overshoot him (offensive).
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2008, 12:47:34 PM »
Yo-yo is a heading reversal, or close to it.  Barrel roll result in exiting each revolution at the same general heading as started with.

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2008, 12:50:15 PM »
Yo-yo is a heading reversal, or close to it.  Barrel roll result in exiting each revolution at the same general heading as started with.


but//////////


what is a rolling scissors then?


cap is sooooooo confused now....................
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2008, 12:53:38 PM »

but//////////


what is a rolling scissors then?


cap is sooooooo confused now....................

Go here CAP1 ... http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/index.aspx
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2008, 01:07:31 PM »
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2008, 01:09:29 PM »
what is a rolling scissors then?

Series of asymmetrical barrel rolls or if you want to break it further, a series of diving and climbing turns. It looks like corkscrew pattern.

Bonus answer: http://olfablades.stores.yahoo.net/j102b-12.html

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2008, 01:22:54 PM »
Here's the image with trail on:


Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Agent360

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
      • http://troywardphotography.com
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2008, 04:00:25 PM »
Bighorn's post above show is perfectly. This IS a rolling scissor. You can see that easily by looking at the fight in the horizontal plane. In fact if you look at it from any angle (meaning rotating around the center) it will look the same.

IF this were an image of a FLAT scissor and you looked at it from the same angle you would see two almost strait lines like railroad tracks doing zig zagging. IF you looked at it from above down it would look like the image above.

You will notice there are no yo-yo's in the image. You can distinguish this by the inverted roll at the top.

A series of yo-yo's can be employed in a continued "high sides attack" without any heading reversal against a strait flying target such as a bomber. I disagree that a yo-yo is a "kind of heading reversal". I understand the simplistic explanation but that is confusing to people who don't understand basics.

Heading reversals are defined by a change in direction of at least 90 degrees. If it is less than 90 degrees it's a turn. Further a heading reversal is not the same as a "turn". A turn is a turn. A heading reversal is involves a vertical line (up or down) and aileron roll in such a mannor to immediatly change direction that could not otherwise be done without a time and energy consuming turn. Turns and heading reversals are as different as yo-yo's and scissors.

I hear the term "yo-yo" used very loosly all the time in all the arena's as a way to say what happend. I have seen it described as a turn, immel, split s, wingover, stall turn, chandell and others. Often when in a "fluid" turning fight all these maneuvers tend to blend together in funky ways and seem like something else.

I think it is important to understand specific maneuvers as the appear on there own. One has to know how each one is performed on its own to fully understand how the interact with each other. If you can't visualize in a 3 dimensional space what a singular maneuver is theres now way one can figure out how they connect together.

Aerobatics maneuvers (ABM) and air combat maneuvers (ACM) are very different yet almost the same in many ways. One can look at ABM as a kind of KATA as permormed in martial arts as a training exercise with the intent on perfoming them as perfectly as possible without having to defend yourself against an attack. ACM would be the use of the individual KATA moves applied against an attacker in a free style way with the intent on killing the opponent.

I think it will help some if the information on these three links are studied. They discuss aerobatic maneuvers. The goal in ABM is to string these together as a sort of KATA to make a show. I think it would help to attempt to perform some of them in the TA or DA. This helps one understand how the plane is moving in 3 dimensional space and to distinquish between specific maneuvers. Some of them have combat usefullness some don't.

International Aerobatic Club
http://www.iac.org/begin/figures.html

From answers...com
http://www.answers.com/topic/aerobatic-maneuver

This site is very interesting as it shows the full show as performed by the famous Aerobatic pilot Diana Britten. Take a look her show diagram. If one can begin to plan like this in your head as you fight it becomes much easier to " think ahead" and decide what YOU ARE GOING TO DO instead of being dictated by the attacker.
http://www.dianabritten.com/displays.html

Respectfully

Agent360






Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10173
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2008, 03:03:46 PM »
Both. Usually, with about equal skill pilots, rolling scissors quickly deteriorate into very slow one, since it is used as defensive maneuver and main purpose is to make other guy overshoot (both will try to go slower than other). That means you'll have to cut throttle and drop flaps when on top and bottoms (and in between if necessary) and going full throttle on the way up.

Things can vary, depending on the planes, of course. Good example would be here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,211375.0.html , F4u vs Ki-84 in slow rolling scissors, where ki-84 had to travel larger corkscrew pattern due to higher speeds (engine power), whilst f4u (with full flaps) could turn tighter. Ultimately, f4u got behind ki-84, but then ki-84 broke the scissors and went into vertical where f4u couldn't quite follow.

here is the new correct link to the file Barbossa had linked to in the above linked thread.......if anyone is interested.....

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/tc/AvsAjuly29th2007_mahaKi84vsTCf4u1_10minutefight.ahf
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline DoNKeY

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1304
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2008, 03:37:49 PM »
here is the new correct link to the file Barbossa had linked to in the above linked thread.......if anyone is interested.....

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/tc/AvsAjuly29th2007_mahaKi84vsTCf4u1_10minutefight.ahf

Thank you, I've been wanting to see this.
2sBlind

Offline Domin

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 271
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2008, 01:47:11 AM »
here is the new correct link to the file Barbossa had linked to in the above linked thread.......if anyone is interested.....

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/tc/AvsAjuly29th2007_mahaKi84vsTCf4u1_10minutefight.ahf

Good film TC.

Who was maha?

Going through some old film...
http://www.furballers.com/mahadomin.zip
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 02:36:43 AM by Domin »

Offline Badboy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2008, 08:07:10 PM »
Just to clarify some of the points made earlier in this thread.

Firstly, let's get the terminology squared away. The maneuvers being discussed in this thread are Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM), and not aerobatic maneuvers. In the context of an air-to-air engagement, BFM is always flown with respect to an adversary aircraft. However, it is important to understand that all types of fighter maneuvering is ultimately BFM. In the military fighter training schools, both initial and advanced, BFM is taught first. Later, when the student is introduced to ground attack, he is taught how air-to-ground is really just BFM against a fixed target on the ground. Even when a pilot is rejoining on his flight, he is solving BFM problems. Ultimately, all fighter flying is just a matter of getting your airplane pointed in the right direction, with the right speed, at the right time, and with enough maneuvering room to complete the maneuver.

All aircraft can roll, turn, and accelerate. BFM is a blend of these three basic maneuvers to gain an energy and/or positional advantage on another aircraft. The purpose of gaining this advantage is to be able to fire a weapon at the adversary aircraft. The type of weapon and its characteristics will determine how much BFM is needed to employ it.

A significant point to always remember about BFM is that it is not an exact series of maneuvers flown to reach a specific conclusion. Instead, BFM is a combination of complimentary maneuvers that blend into each other, and which require continual reassessment to ensure the desired objective is met. When the pilot begins a BFM maneuver, he also begins a process of observation, prediction, and correction. He first observes the position of his target. He then analyzes target motion to predict where the target’s maneuvering will take it, and finally the pilot will correct his own flight path as necessary to maintain his advantage. That's why BFM is always flown relative to an adversary aircraft. It is important to distinguish between that and aerobatic maneuvers that are flown without an adversary aircraft, and as such, have little or nothing to do with air combat.

The Basic Fighter Maneuvers being discussed are the rolling scissors and the yo-yo maneuvers. Unfortunately, any attempt to describe them in words alone will often create some confusion or misunderstanding. So the diagrams below help to clarify what is happening in the high yo-yo, and then the rolling scissors.

The High Speed Yo-Yo is intended primarily to be used in low aspect and angle off situations where you have excessive closure. It is also useful in solving some moderately high aspect situations where you do not have the lateral turning room to make the corner. In both instances, you are in danger of losing your nose/tail separation. The solution is to rotate your lift vector and maneuver out of the plane of motion of the target. Your objective is to reduce your overtake by increasing the distance you fly relative to the target. You perform the high yo-yo by rolling to point your lift vector behind the target. Then you pull hard to raise your nose out of his plane of motion, the amount that you raise your nose is directly related to how much overtake or aspect you are trying to control. You will know when you have your nose high enough when you see the target starting to move away from you. At this point, you will be high above his plane of turn and close to his six o’clock. Make an unloaded roll to point your lift vector back to a position of lead pursuit, and then pull down into the target.



Common errors in performing the high yo-yo include:

  • starting the maneuver too late which results in you overshooting the target
  • starting the maneuver too early or yo-yoing too high which allows the target to separate
  • burying the nose in your pull down

Your objective is to descend back into the target’s plane of motion with reduced closure. From that position, you should finish your attack.

The rolling scissors shown below often results from a close-in vertical overshoot, or may be a natural progression of the flat or low speed scissors. As the name implies, this type of scissors involves a series of barrel rolls with the axis of the roll in the direction of motion. The rolling scissors is a more efficient defensive manoeuvre than the horizontal scissors due to the utilisation of the three-dimensional maneuver (barrel roll). The rolling scissors may be used in nearly all situations where a horizontal scissors could be used, except when the defender does not have enough speed to roll over the top. It is most effective when the attacker overshoots the defender with a high angle-off below his flight path.



You continue to barrel roll, placing your lift vector on or slightly aft of the bandit. Your goal is to execute the rolling scissors as shown and explained in the diagram above and to capitalize on any mistake the bandit makes.  To stay offensive in a rolling scissors, you use the three-dimensional environment to control your energy effectively by:

  • Proper lift vector placement
  • Pulling to the edge of the stall
  • Trading airspeed for altitude to reduce your forward vector

In all this, you are trying to stay behind the bandit.  A key factor in winning the rolling scissors is to understand that it is the steepness of your climbs and dives (the helix angle of your flight path) that determines your horizontal movement more than your absolute speed.

Hope that helps...

Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2008, 08:13:12 PM »
A sieries of yo-yo's going to the same side (left or right), will circle around the same geographic ground location.  A series of barrel rolls, whether all left, all right, or alternating moves down range.  That's what I was trying to say to point out a fundamental difference between the two, while typing on a cell phone number pad! (see this header icon --->).

Aerobatics are of limited use in BFM.  Different maneuvers have properties, either positional or angular, or both that may be useful in solving a BFM problem.  If one is not able to duplicate those desired properties by performing a maneuver absent an opponent, then it will be useless to employ in BFM.

When maneuvers are applied to BFM as opposed to aerobatics, they are constantly modified in consideration of the bogie.  The result is that you can take a number of maneuvers with similar components, and in the end find that they may look like one another.  Either from the cockpit point of view, or from a after action flight path point of view.  Which one of those maneuvers was performed?  In practical application of BFM it comes down to "What BFM parameters am I trying to solve?", over "What did it look like when it was all said and done?".

With a high yo yo, you have primarily a separation problem, but it is assumed to be verses a maneuvering opponent.  So there is also an angle off target issue that a properly employed high yo yo will automatically reduce, and typically the risk of a flight path overshoot that factors into the decision making process.  Those are all standard components of the BFM problem that a high yo yo is typically employed to address.

By removing the maneuvering bogie, rather than clearifying things, you are muddying the waters.  I have no problem with the description of something else with a completely different set of BFM parameter objectives (maneuver to increase angle off, avoid fuselage alignment) being described as a "high yo yo" when it does look the same.  However if one just drops the BFM problem/solution factor, and only defines a fundamental BFM with what it looks like, that only adds to confusion.

LOL, I see Badboy just posted while I was previewing my post.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 08:18:00 PM by Murdr »