Author Topic: rolling scissors  (Read 5947 times)

Offline HomeBoy

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2008, 10:28:41 AM »
Here is what it looks like for AH, from a duel between bighorn vs domin

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI

and here is how it looks like in real life

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dzLGSvHBkMI&feature=related

but if you can't find anyone, you can alway smsg me if you see me inthe game and I can help you out.

Yenny

Those are some fun videos to watch.  It's hard to watch them and not sway in my chair!   :D 

Thanks for posting.  I especially enjoyed the RL one.
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Offline jerkins

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2008, 10:57:47 AM »
Ok, so if i have this right you are in a slight climb with a con 600 back and closing at a decent rate.  As i see it you have a couple of options. for argument sake, we will say the con is in the same plane as you

Option 1:  fast rate of closure

In this case i would do a simple reversal. Start a gentle turn, and tighten as the con closes in.  The gentle turn will bait the con into starting a lead turn, to cut inside of you and get guns on you.  As you tighten your turn, he wont be able to hold his angle and he will miss.  Now come the part that takes practice, when you sense the overshoot, go vertical and roll over onto him (sort of like a barrel roll). This will give a snapshot on him or you could possible saddle up on him.

Option 2:  Moderate to slow rate of closure

i would not go vertical immediatly here, that will just lead to an easy shot.  I would start by initiating a flat scissor, you are trying to get your oppenent to chop throttle and follow. Then when he was nice and close i would put a vertical element into it.  I like rolling scissor, but climbing flat scissor could work also.  Hopefully the con has blown his e, and will be just kinda floating there.  Now you can drop in behind him.

The are purely hypothetical, but i have done things like this before it worked out.  Takes practice to get the timing down.
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Offline moot

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2008, 01:35:02 PM »
Off the wall Q..  Has anyone gotten into rolling scissors against a plane whose prop turns the other way, with both planes rolling in opposite directions?
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Offline Messiah

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2008, 02:11:13 PM »
Off the wall Q..  Has anyone gotten into rolling scissors against a plane whose prop turns the other way, with both planes rolling in opposite directions?

Wouldn't that be impossible?  Maybe a vertical or flat scissor but a true rolling scissor?
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Offline moot

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2008, 02:37:19 PM »
Why impossible?
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2008, 06:54:53 PM »
Rolling Scissors animated GIF ( AVI type film   wait for it to download all the way )

explained by Badboy  - this link is from the Aces High Trainers Webpage

hope this helps:

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors-ani.gif
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline DaveJ

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2008, 06:59:32 PM »
Dumb question: in a true rolling scissors, are you supposed to pop flaps and/or cut throttle, or keep an open throttle so that you can keep going vertical?
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Offline Yenny

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2008, 07:24:43 PM »
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2008, 07:28:50 PM »
Dumb question: in a true rolling scissors, are you supposed to pop flaps and/or cut throttle, or keep an open throttle so that you can keep going vertical?

Both. Usually, with about equal skill pilots, rolling scissors quickly deteriorate into very slow one, since it is used as defensive maneuver and main purpose is to make other guy overshoot (both will try to go slower than other). That means you'll have to cut throttle and drop flaps when on top and bottoms (and in between if necessary) and going full throttle on the way up.

Things can vary, depending on the planes, of course. Good example would be here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,211375.0.html , F4u vs Ki-84 in slow rolling scissors, where ki-84 had to travel larger corkscrew pattern due to higher speeds (engine power), whilst f4u (with full flaps) could turn tighter. Ultimately, f4u got behind ki-84, but then ki-84 broke the scissors and went into vertical where f4u couldn't quite follow.

Offline 2bighorn

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2008, 07:42:09 PM »
Wouldn't that be impossible?  Maybe a vertical or flat scissor but a true rolling scissor?
Quite possible, although I've never seen it more than few rolls at the time.

Offline uptown

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2008, 08:37:01 PM »
Ok, so if i have this right you are in a slight climb with a con 600 back and closing at a decent rate.  As i see it you have a couple of options. for argument sake, we will say the con is in the same plane as you

Option 1:  fast rate of closure

In this case i would do a simple reversal. Start a gentle turn, and tighten as the con closes in.  The gentle turn will bait the con into starting a lead turn, to cut inside of you and get guns on you.  As you tighten your turn, he wont be able to hold his angle and he will miss.  Now come the part that takes practice, when you sense the overshoot, go vertical and roll over onto him (sort of like a barrel roll). This will give a snapshot on him or you could possible saddle up on him.

Option 2:  Moderate to slow rate of closure

i would not go vertical immediatly here, that will just lead to an easy shot.  I would start by initiating a flat scissor, you are trying to get your oppenent to chop throttle and follow. Then when he was nice and close i would put a vertical element into it.  I like rolling scissor, but climbing flat scissor could work also.  Hopefully the con has blown his e, and will be just kinda floating there.  Now you can drop in behind him.

The are purely hypothetical, but i have done things like this before it worked out.  Takes practice to get the timing down.


Both of these are options I like. The second option I use quite a bit for no other reason then it's easier and if i'm on the deck I'm usually as fast or faster then the bad guy.
Option 1, I can pull off on the noobs, but when it comes to some of the vets in the game...forget about it. I usually end up in the tower wondering what went wrong  :lol
When this move is done to me, I see what is going to happen if I stay the coarse, so I also go vertical, hit a notch or 2 of flaps to slow to his speed and create some kind of separtion.The scissors begin and I usually stall out with the guy sattled on my 6.
This is what I need someone to work with me on.I usually drop my nose to gain speed and juke to get away but a pony regains E like crap and I'm forced to either run for a sector until I get it back or just hand the guy a kill.
At the point that I stall out of control I need to flatten out, hold my alt, and regain control. And try to go vertical again to stay above the con to get another shot.
Lighten up Francis

Offline Agent360

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2008, 08:56:09 PM »
There are 3 kinds of scissors.

1. flat scissor

2. Rolling scissor

3. Verticle rolling scissor

1 Flat scissor:
This is done without any "rolling over". The reversal turns are done flat by weaving back and forth with the canopy "always" up. The true classic method is to use the turning in order to fly a shorter distance WITHOUT CUTTING THROTTLE. One should keep their speed but cause the over shoot by turning at the right time. One must get "out of sync" with the con behind you. Once you get one little angle like this is is immediatly amplified and you soon create the over shoot or come to a merge (if that is what you want). If done properly the con does not have time to go over the top into a yoyo. However if he cuts his throttle early and stays behing in lag persuit it won't work. BUT!!!! if the con cuts throttle and you don't you are still going faster than him. So straiten out and create seperation. Or after coming to the con or on the "turn toward the con" keep going strait as he passes. This is called an "exit" and will give you time to extend, get energy and merge again.

I should mention the difference between real life and this game. In real life NO PILOT would ever cut his throttle. Here in Aces High we regularly use throttle tricks to create overshoots and other moves. But in real life and death a pilot would just make a counter move by either climbing out or yoyo over the top. Real life scissors wouldnt last more than a few turns before somebody bugged out for better position. But in this GAME we have the oppurtunity to take it all the way...something that probably wouldnt happen in real life WW2.

2. Rolling scissor:
This is the most common kind of scissor done in the game. Givin 2 equal pilots the fight will deteriate into a rolling scissor with a trading of position several times. It usually gets slower and slower with both trying to get guns AND keep position or until one makes a mistake and allows the other to either get away for a new merge or get the top position.

Rolling scissors are initiated most of the time on a merge or against a con coming DOWN on your six and at similar air speed. You would pull up and roll over ( tight barrel roll) and watch the con pass under you as your canopy is pointed to the ground. The con then pulls up and rolls over the same way you did. This continues over and over until one gets the overshoot and the shot. The rolling scissor is conducted in a "pull up roll over" fashion. It is a type of continious barrel roll with both cons rolling around each other. During the barrel rolls you are trying to make yours tighter and to start the roll over the top before he turns up at the bottom. IT is the same concept as the flat scissor except it is dont while rolling over and NOT in a flat turn fashion. Further the "path" this fight takes is horizontal to the ground and not UP.

3. Verticle rolling scissor:
This is the least common type performed in the game. This is really a jet maneuver but can be done in ww2 planes. The way we do it in here is a variation of the rolling scissor. The type will normally only go for 3 mabey 4 scissors before it turns into a true rolling scissor.

This type is normally initiated by a con attempting to rope or by a con who blows a high speed pass and turns too early at the top. Or it can be intiated on purpose in a good climbing plane.

There are two variations to this
The first variation:
The defender will go strait verticle and stall turn 180 deg  at the top BEFORE the bogey get to guns. Defender goes strait down and then pulling up (now going back the way you came up hence the 180 turn). Bogey turns down. while diving strait down the defender rolls over 180 deg on the way down and pulls back into the bogey going strait verticle. For the bogey to get guns he must also reverse 180 and pull up to follow. IF the defender has made the correct "early" turn at the top and at the bottom..... on the second turn at the top the defender should be coming down on the bogey with a front quater shot. IF he misses the move is repeated. If this is viewed on film the the two planes make big looping circles up and down. The fight is conducted in a verticle fashion without covering much distance horizontally across the ground. Again it is really a series of loops with both planes looping back to each other continuosly.

The second variation:
This variation is intiated on the "merge" and is normally looked at as a "rope" to start with. This will only last a max of 3 turns before one will win. The merge happens. Both pull hard into each other putting lift vector on each other. Comes the shot for either. Both again pull up and roll for a shot. And a third time. This is all done going strait up. When one plane stalls out the one on the bottom is primed for a shot. IF no shot hits then the scissor starts again STILL IN THE VERTICLE but going strait down this time. If no shot is made by the time the deck come up then it will transverse into a "rolling scissor".

Both of these variations transverse to rolling scissors very rapidly.

I would also mention that anytime you find yourself coming to a merge over and over after looping or oblique turning back into each other...YOUR IN A ROLLING SCISSOR. If you recognize this it is a simple matter of making early turns in the vert. This is the same thing as getting out of sync in flat scissors. It is just happening in the verticle instead of flat.


I have posted a link to an AH film that show the classic "rolling scissor". Be sure to watch it in the "fixed" view with trails and it is very clear what is happening. Then watch it with the pilot views from the cockpit.

http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/training/rolling_scissor_film2_0001.ahf

Agent360






Offline uptown

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2008, 09:08:22 PM »
 :aok Thanks.
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Offline DoNKeY

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2008, 09:20:48 PM »
Here's two films that I like.  Both are against violater, and are 4 and 5 minutes long and basically all rolling scissors.  Watch flap and throttle (as you might see, I like to sit on my flaps longer then him). 

http://www.mediafire.com/?wq59dmi9mhf

http://www.mediafire.com/?nnxhymm3yye

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: rolling scissors
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2008, 12:06:12 AM »
There's also a fourth type of rolling scissors.  It's called a defensive spiral.  It's a vertical rolling scissors in a dive.  Very rare in game but very fun to fly.
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