Author Topic: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?  (Read 14728 times)

Offline Roundeye

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2008, 02:26:38 PM »
Can't find the source currently, but I guarentee "glide bombing" was actually used with effectiveness during WWII.



Glide bombing referrs to what the bomb does, not the aircraft.  Unless you wanted to call it a "high speed glide".  In which case shutting your engine down would again do nothing but put you and your aircraft at risk for no reason.http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-23-E.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glide_bomb
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 02:34:56 PM by Roundeye »
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Offline g00b

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2008, 03:01:00 PM »
I still maintain I've read of planes gliding in for sneak attacks. I'll try to find a source...



Glide bombing referrs to what the bomb does, not the aircraft.  Unless you wanted to call it a "high speed glide".  In which case shutting your engine down would again do nothing but put you and your aircraft at risk for no reason.http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/CHAPTER-23-E.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glide_bomb

Offline CAP1

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2008, 03:22:37 PM »
So, here I am, lined up perfectly on the tail of this LA in lead pursuit.  Got the angle but have no 20mm left and one of my 50's is hit and not operational.  But I'm close enough to do some damage at least.  So, I'm throttled down, ready for the attempt at an over shoot..
Then suddenly, the LA drops behind as if they ran into something (not a warp).  As he's passing by, I hear his doing the chug chug as it was just shut down, then I hear it start again when he gets behind me..  Luckily I was going faster than him, throttled up, hit wep, and climbed away until a squadie saved my butt just in time. :rock  I've seen this tactic before used in guys mainly with Yaks and never thought much of it until I began to do some research..

In a radial air-cooled engine, the starting process is extremely complicated figuring 10-15 steps before even engaging the starter..  Not to mention they had a phenomena called Hydraulic Lock after the engine was shut down..  Since radial engines use copious amounts of oil, the oil leaks into the cylinders after shut down and needs to be drained before a restart can be attempted.  THIS CANNOT BE DONE WHILE IN THE AIR and requires a mechanic to perform.. 

As far as Liquid cooled in-line or Vee configured engines, I haven't researched that yet.. 

Just wondering what you guys thought..


considering some of the other things people do in here, i'd say this is a valid tactic.
i don't see it as much different than simply pulling the throttle to idle.

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Offline crockett

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2008, 05:00:43 PM »
Why cut your engine when you can just reduce throttle?

Because people are dumb, it's just like when tards drop thir gears in the middle of a dog fight. That always cracks me up..
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Offline Roundeye

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2008, 05:26:13 PM »
Because people are dumb, it's just like when tards drop thir gears in the middle of a dog fight. That always cracks me up..

I like when they do that.  It gives you more parts to shoot off. :D

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Offline GrimCH

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2008, 05:52:19 PM »
It may have been done accidentally, the E button being right next the Q & W for flaps.

If on purpose, does nothing more than cutting the throttle would do.
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Offline bj229r

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2008, 06:02:05 PM »
Why cut your engine when you can just reduce throttle?
when engine at idle you cant hear gv's, or surrounding noise (prolly not best thing to do in air-air mode) Jug has no protracted start/stop sound, so cycling engine for 2 seconds most useful hunting gv's from on high
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Offline Slamfire

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2008, 06:13:44 PM »
Actually your plane has more drag at idle than with the engine turned off. Turning your engine off in a dogfight is just dumb. The only valid tactic is for stealth. Gliding to sneak-attack a buff or GV is always fun.

Turning the engine off in flight is the #1 way to find GVs - with the engine off, even at high alt, you can hear where the enemy GVs are (provided they have their engines on).  You can find them by 3d sound long before icon/dot range.

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Offline pallero

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2008, 06:16:56 PM »
I still maintain I've read of planes gliding in for sneak attacks. I'll try to find a source...

Here is one. Soviet women pilots, The Night Witches. *click*

Quote
The Witches would fly to a certain distance of the enemy encapments that were to be the target, and cut their engine. They would then glide silently, silently... When the Fascists started to hear the whistle of the wind against the Po-2's wing bracing wires, they realized in panic that it was too late. The Night Witches would sneak up on them and release their bombs, then restart their engines and fly away home.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2008, 10:21:31 AM »

Just wondering what you guys thought..


I think you need to do more research. We used to shut down an engine (R-1820-82) for single engine training. Restarting was a simple process. No worry about hydraulic lock.

Hydraulic lock can occur when a radial engine sits for a long time. It's quite rare. I have over 2,300 hours in radial powered military aircraft and have never seen an instance of hydraulic lock. When you see ground crew pushing the prop through on the ground, they're clearing the lower cylinders of accumulated oil, out through the exhaust valve. Starters on radials are designed to shear the shaft should enough resistance be encountered if a cylinder is full of oil. Again, that's a very rare occurrence. Usually, one valve is open enough to provide a place for excess oil to go. Most oil ends up in the stacks, where it either burns off, or gets blown out.

As others have stated, their is little to no difference between pulling throttle to idle and hitting the E key, relative to deceleration. What is not  modeled is prop drag when windmilling. Some aircraft decelerate slower than others. Spitfires and Tempests slow rapidly. The La-7 decelerates much slower. It seems almost random throughout the plane set.

I've tested this a great deal. Airframe drag is not what makes it different. You can see this by diving to high speed, level off and kill the motor at 400 mph. Time how long it takes to slow to 300 mph. Repeat the test, this time setting prop pitch to minimum drag. Test several different aircraft and you will see that the cleaner airframe decelerates much slower when the prop drag in minimized. Be sure to test aircraft of similar weight as momentum of mass IS modeled. Testing a Zero and P-47 is an example of an apples and oranges test, where momentum greatly skews the data.

I performed many tests of this kind, and presented one to HTC as a prime example of the randomness of prop drag from plane to plane. We know that the P-51D has a much lower drag coefficient than the La-7. Yet, when you do the deceleration test with max drag of the prop (low pitch), the Mustang decelerates faster than the La-7 with the engines at idle. However, if you set high pitch, the La-7 decelerates much quicker than the Mustang. Thus, we know that that prop drag at low pitch is not modeled (and HiTech has stated this to be true). It is what it is.... I compiled a ranking of aircraft prop drag on some fighters.

E bleed was measured from 350 mph down to 150 mph with props at normal (low) pitch and 25% fuel. The elapsed times in seconds are as follows:

P-47N: 49.91
P-47D-40: 49.84
P-47D-11: 48.34
F4U-1A: 45.92
190A-8: 45.65
F6F-5: 43.97
F4U-4: 43.65
190A-5: 42.94
Ta 152: 42.01
La-7: 39.31
Ki-61: 38.73
P-51D: 37.96
P-51B: 36.72
190D-9: 36.46
109K-4: 35.72
Spit14: 35.69
C.205: 35.61
N1K2-J: 35.53
P-38L: 33.41
109F-4: 32.06
FM-2: 31.31
Spit8: 30.91
Ki-84: 30.69
Tempest: 30.28
Typhoon: 30.21
Spit16: 29.82
P-40E: 29.48
Yak-9U: 27.78
Spit5: 27.15
A6M5 24.46

Planes at the bottom end of the list are the most likely to force an overshoot by chopping throttle or killing the engine as they have the highest rate of deceleration without power. Weight is a factor due to momentum. However, heavy fighters like the Tempest and Typhoon suffer huge prop drag at idle and it is seen in the results.

Now, all of the above is merely information. The fact that you fell for the old "chop the power overshoot" tells me that you were caught unprepared. When an enemy chops power like that, simply pull into the vertical, roll and drop in behind. The fact that the other guy has chopped power or killed the engine means that he hasn't the thrust to go vertical with you. Countering maneuvers or tricks to force an overshoot is something you learn from experience.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 10:25:44 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Anodizer

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2008, 01:02:01 PM »
I think you need to do more research. We used to shut down an engine (R-1820-82) for single engine training. Restarting was a simple process. No worry about hydraulic lock.

Hydraulic lock can occur when a radial engine sits for a long time. It's quite rare. I have over 2,300 hours in radial powered military aircraft and have never seen an instance of hydraulic lock. When you see ground crew pushing the prop through on the ground, they're clearing the lower cylinders of accumulated oil, out through the exhaust valve. Starters on radials are designed to shear the shaft should enough resistance be encountered if a cylinder is full of oil. Again, that's a very rare occurrence. Usually, one valve is open enough to provide a place for excess oil to go. Most oil ends up in the stacks, where it either burns off, or gets blown out.

As others have stated, their is little to no difference between pulling throttle to idle and hitting the E key, relative to deceleration. What is not  modeled is prop drag when windmilling. Some aircraft decelerate slower than others. Spitfires and Tempests slow rapidly. The La-7 decelerates much slower. It seems almost random throughout the plane set.

I've tested this a great deal. Airframe drag is not what makes it different. You can see this by diving to high speed, level off and kill the motor at 400 mph. Time how long it takes to slow to 300 mph. Repeat the test, this time setting prop pitch to minimum drag. Test several different aircraft and you will see that the cleaner airframe decelerates much slower when the prop drag in minimized. Be sure to test aircraft of similar weight as momentum of mass IS modeled. Testing a Zero and P-47 is an example of an apples and oranges test, where momentum greatly skews the data.

I performed many tests of this kind, and presented one to HTC as a prime example of the randomness of prop drag from plane to plane. We know that the P-51D has a much lower drag coefficient than the La-7. Yet, when you do the deceleration test with max drag of the prop (low pitch), the Mustang decelerates faster than the La-7 with the engines at idle. However, if you set high pitch, the La-7 decelerates much quicker than the Mustang. Thus, we know that that prop drag at low pitch is not modeled (and HiTech has stated this to be true). It is what it is.... I compiled a ranking of aircraft prop drag on some fighters.

E bleed was measured from 350 mph down to 150 mph with props at normal (low) pitch and 25% fuel. The elapsed times in seconds are as follows:

P-47N: 49.91
P-47D-40: 49.84
P-47D-11: 48.34
F4U-1A: 45.92
190A-8: 45.65
F6F-5: 43.97
F4U-4: 43.65
190A-5: 42.94
Ta 152: 42.01
La-7: 39.31
Ki-61: 38.73
P-51D: 37.96
P-51B: 36.72
190D-9: 36.46
109K-4: 35.72
Spit14: 35.69
C.205: 35.61
N1K2-J: 35.53
P-38L: 33.41
109F-4: 32.06
FM-2: 31.31
Spit8: 30.91
Ki-84: 30.69
Tempest: 30.28
Typhoon: 30.21
Spit16: 29.82
P-40E: 29.48
Yak-9U: 27.78
Spit5: 27.15
A6M5 24.46

Planes at the bottom end of the list are the most likely to force an overshoot by chopping throttle or killing the engine as they have the highest rate of deceleration without power. Weight is a factor due to momentum. However, heavy fighters like the Tempest and Typhoon suffer huge prop drag at idle and it is seen in the results.

Now, all of the above is merely information. The fact that you fell for the old "chop the power overshoot" tells me that you were caught unprepared. When an enemy chops power like that, simply pull into the vertical, roll and drop in behind. The fact that the other guy has chopped power or killed the engine means that he hasn't the thrust to go vertical with you. Countering maneuvers or tricks to force an overshoot is something you learn from experience.

My regards,

Widewing

Thanks for the in-depth info!   :rock
Yeah, the info that I found on this matter wasn't entirely complete and after this thread started I did some more research and found exactly what you're saying as fact..  I don't know why, but after seeing a manual for a P-47 and all that's involved in starting the engine, I kind of assumed that starting a radial engine would be a complicated procedure and might possibly not be able to be done while in mid-flight..  I guess putting 2 and 2 together didn't work this time..  <S>
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Offline Tr0jan

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2008, 03:20:59 PM »
I cut my engine to listen for Gv's  :P :lol

Offline Spatula

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2008, 05:01:00 PM »
Because people are dumb, it's just like when tards drop thir gears in the middle of a dog fight. That always cracks me up..

Dropping the gear in an F4u is a perfectly valid thing to do for many reasons. It was designed to be used as a dive-brake and can be deployed at ridiculous speeds and causes quite a bit of drag. Can be quite useful for causing overshoots on top of using throttle. The hog will declerate very quickly in that case.
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Offline kilz

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2008, 05:22:07 PM »
i started cutting my engine on and off now that i lost my throttle and have to use the on on the stick
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Offline badhorse

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2008, 07:00:25 PM »
Not to mention they had a phenomena called Hydraulic Lock after the engine was shut down..  Since radial engines use copious amounts of oil, the oil leaks into the cylinders after shut down and needs to be drained before a restart can be attempted.  THIS CANNOT BE DONE WHILE IN THE AIR and requires a mechanic to perform.. 



While it is true the bottom cylinders of a radial engine was susceptable to hydraulic lock, it happened after the airplane had been shutdown for awhile and the oil in the cylinders drained down into the cylinder heads.  If an engine shutdown in flight (especially with the prop still turning) hydraulic lock would not be a problem.

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