Author Topic: More question for TnB  (Read 957 times)

Offline Yenny

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More question for TnB
« on: June 25, 2008, 04:56:24 PM »
I've been spending a lot more time with TnB. Yesterday, I asked SunFan to go to the DA to do some TnB workout. We had a G2 v. F4U-D fight and a K4 v. K4 fight, and F4U-1A v. F4U-1A fight. On the G2 v. F4U-D I took the fight to the vertical, I didn't know how well the G2 would handle against the F4U-D on the deck low and slow. Rather then turning on the horizontal I used the vertical rolling scissors etc because I knew it handles a lot better vs the F4U-D on the vert. The K4 v. K4 fight I also went partially vert, it wasn't like a loop or anything but it was more of a vertical rolling scissor with a few overshot in between. When we went F4U-1A v. F4U-1A I strictly went on the horizontal and only went vert on the few initial illies. I found that it restrict a lot of my movements and and got spanked twice.   

SunFan then asked me why I only fight the E fight but not TnB. Here I am a bit confused. What does TnB mean? To me I though it meant as long as you're low and slow maneuvering for a better position against your enemy. Or does it mean take the fight on the horizontal side.

My question is: In the first  G2. v. F4U-D what could I have done better?
What I did: SunFan burned his E and I had all my E, so I took advantage of that and stayed w/ my E, zooming in and out without worrying of SunFan bearing that piper on me.

What I could have done: I could have just chop throttle the and try to saddle behind SunFan? I though about this but I though that woulda been in his favor, so I decide to not go into that.

The K4. v. K4, it was just a buncha vertical rolling scissor and force overshot. I though I was in a good position for a bit so I didn't bother breaking out of the vert scissor. I was thinking the person in the worst position of the fight should be the one to break out the vert scissor and perform some other maneuver. So that was why I didn't go into a horizontal fight like SunFan would have wanted I think. Isn't that suppose to be how it is?

The film consisted of the G2. v. F4U-D and K4 v. K4 fight. Each fight last about 5-8 mins, so total 16 min film.

http://files.filefront.com/TnBPracticeahf/;10798788;/fileinfo.html

This next film is my K4. v. a Spit8 on the deck doing about 150 knts and under most of the fight. It's about a 7 min fight. It was a horizontal fight also. Is this what TnB mean? or is it a mixture like the other film in this post?

http://files.filefront.com/K4vSpit16ahf/;10798789;/fileinfo.html

Looking forward to more TnB tips and stuff.

Thanks,
Yenny
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Offline Stang

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2008, 06:32:16 PM »
I'm still confused over this TnB or BnZ stuff.  In the same fight I might switch from one "style" or the other multiple times.  Constraining yourself to one myopic form, if you could even call it one, is just rediculous.  Then again, I guess you just don't know any better...

Offline Yenny

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2008, 06:37:55 PM »
I'm still confused over this TnB or BnZ stuff.  In the same fight I might switch from one "style" or the other multiple times.  Constraining yourself to one myopic form, if you could even call it one, is just rediculous.  Then again, I guess you just don't know any better...

I mean if I'm in like a F4U then I do it all in one, BnZ til I'm low E then TnB, I'd do the same thing if I'm in a spit or any tnb plane (depending on if the area is heavy or not, if it's a solo then i'd usually just tnb it. If it's multiple then bnz til I can tnb, or depend on planes I'm facing.) In D9 I strickly just BnZ because I don't have a TnB option. I mean I alternate tactic depending on the fight. If I burn my enemy's E and I still have E, I'd most likely play E game with him, alternating from TnB to BnZ back and foward. However, I dunno what ya expect =) your attitude is not really constructive. Usually paint people a direction not just kick em when they ask for help.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 06:47:43 PM by Yenny »
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2008, 06:52:43 PM »
A lot of people equate T'n'B with stall fighting, which means that both opponents are riding the stall buzzer working for advantage with the stick in their stomach.  As soon as you "open it up" you're moving toward E fighting.  You'll still be turning and manouvering, but in a much faster, more relaxed way.

I'd be pretty sure that when you said you wanted to practice T'n'B, but instead maintained E that's what caused the confusion.
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Offline Yenny

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 06:54:34 PM »
A lot of people equate T'n'B with stall fighting, which means that both opponents are riding the stall buzzer working for advantage with the stick in their stomach.  As soon as you "open it up" you're moving toward E fighting.  You'll still be turning and manouvering, but in a much faster, more relaxed way.

I'd be pretty sure that when you said you wanted to practice T'n'B, but instead maintained E that's what caused the confusion.

we were pretty much riding the stall buzzer half the time, but it was on the vert.
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Offline FTDEEP

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2008, 08:59:42 PM »
forget about BnZ or TnB...somebody teach this guy what a 6 shot is....

Offline BnZ

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 10:56:29 PM »
forget about BnZ or TnB...somebody teach this guy what a 6 shot is....

That is about the only shot that pathetically bad gunners like myself can actually hit, that and a completely roped foe. And that latter, not all the time apparently.

 The time it takes to work for such a shot leaves us way too vulnerable to being saddled/ganged/picked by the inevitable horde way too much of the time. Then guys like Yenny come along and in, what, 6 months of playing, are hitting any old shot no matter how bad the deflection angle or how horrible the gun ballistics. I watch the films, and this "noob" is killing on the first half-decent shot opportunity every time and free to move on to the next kill.  While I'm still missing 200 yard dead six shots and roped dopes more often than I care to admit...

Honestly Yenny, you make me grind my teeth dude.

Offline Agent360

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 11:38:01 PM »
A lot of people equate T'n'B with stall fighting, which means that both opponents are riding the stall buzzer working for advantage with the stick in their stomach.  As soon as you "open it up" you're moving toward E fighting.  You'll still be turning and manouvering, but in a much faster, more relaxed way.

I'd be pretty sure that when you said you wanted to practice T'n'B, but instead maintained E that's what caused the confusion.

BaldEagl has it right.

I didn't watch the films. But this brings up an interesting topic.

In a 1v1 dual in the DA the more common type of fight is the "stall fight"...junk yard knife fight kinda stuff. In fights against equal or better pilots the fight will just end up on the deck in slow rolling scissors anyway or there will be a quick kill due to a mistake.

So, merging with lots of E and winning the merge by climbing and extending just draws the fight out longer. If you extend on the merge and go for a rope I can just turn away get seperation and wait for your pass. This goes over and over untill eventually (5 or more min) the fight is over by augering, or just plain giving up your six.

Unless other wise specified when I dual I expect the opponent to immediatly turn on the merge.....meaning "engage" for the fight. This can be horisontal, vert, mabey a loop or anything. But we shouldn't get more than 1.5 k of seperation. Over this is just gaining E to get on top. And then it starts all over again.

My point is when we dual we turn and fight. We don't take a break to re assess fly off get E and alt then come back. That is for the MA. Dualing is just the same as old western gunfight at high noon (did you know that high noon is always the time in the da). We draw our guns after the merge then commense to shooting until somebody is dead. Shouldn't take more then 2 min 95% of the time for a conclusion.

There are lots of other ways to play the game just like in poker. But I think of a typical dual ( same plane, co alt merge, no ho) as much like simple 5 card draw poker. If you want to play something else then call the game and state the rules.

 :salute
 

Offline Yenny

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2008, 01:18:33 AM »
That is about the only shot that pathetically bad gunners like myself can actually hit, that and a completely roped foe. And that latter, not all the time apparently.

 The time it takes to work for such a shot leaves us way too vulnerable to being saddled/ganged/picked by the inevitable horde way too much of the time. Then guys like Yenny come along and in, what, 6 months of playing, are hitting any old shot no matter how bad the deflection angle or how horrible the gun ballistics. I watch the films, and this "noob" is killing on the first half-decent shot opportunity every time and free to move on to the next kill.  While I'm still missing 200 yard dead six shots and roped dopes more often than I care to admit...

Honestly Yenny, you make me grind my teeth dude.

That cause 6 shots are the hardest, since the it yield the smallest target area. When I BnZ I try to create a 4-5,  6 HIGH, or 7-8 shots. If I have to take a 6 shot in BnZ usually is because the guy is AFK, or I really need to clear someone. Even then I'd get to 200 yards and sometime finding myself spendin 50-100 rounds to get them, or completely miss and ram the guy. I really really try to avoid direct 6 o'clock shot. In TnB situation I work for a snapshot,  high deflection shot, or commonly the high 6 shot.

Check out this film, this is how I kinda make snapshot and high deflection. I dunno if you seen it since I posted it once when I asked if I should take shot like these. Or it was consider a bad "ho" shot.

http://files.filefront.com/K4vNikiahf/;10752173;/fileinfo.html
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 01:25:26 AM by Yenny »
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Offline Yenny

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2008, 04:20:05 AM »
BaldEagl has it right.

I didn't watch the films. But this brings up an interesting topic.

In a 1v1 dual in the DA the more common type of fight is the "stall fight"...junk yard knife fight kinda stuff. In fights against equal or better pilots the fight will just end up on the deck in slow rolling scissors anyway or there will be a quick kill due to a mistake.

So, merging with lots of E and winning the merge by climbing and extending just draws the fight out longer. If you extend on the merge and go for a rope I can just turn away get seperation and wait for your pass. This goes over and over untill eventually (5 or more min) the fight is over by augering, or just plain giving up your six.

Unless other wise specified when I dual I expect the opponent to immediatly turn on the merge.....meaning "engage" for the fight. This can be horisontal, vert, mabey a loop or anything. But we shouldn't get more than 1.5 k of seperation. Over this is just gaining E to get on top. And then it starts all over again.

My point is when we dual we turn and fight. We don't take a break to re assess fly off get E and alt then come back. That is for the MA. Dualing is just the same as old western gunfight at high noon (did you know that high noon is always the time in the da). We draw our guns after the merge then commense to shooting until somebody is dead. Shouldn't take more then 2 min 95% of the time for a conclusion.

There are lots of other ways to play the game just like in poker. But I think of a typical dual ( same plane, co alt merge, no ho) as much like simple 5 card draw poker. If you want to play something else then call the game and state the rules.

 :salute
 


!! watch the film
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Offline BnZ

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2008, 07:12:01 AM »
If you come in co-alt, co-e, in a duel with the same planes, and the enemy ends up with an E advantage over you, you've done something wrong.

If, on the initial merge, the opponent just cranks his aircraft vertical and goes for the rope, this shouldn't ever work...you will see what he is doing, use moderate Gs yourself, and have enough E to follow him up, probably shoot him, at least be generally in his six quarter and able to saddle up.

If however, you dump alot of speed or deliberately come in with lower speed and/or drop flaps to gain a tight turn and an angle right on the merge, this is a gamble. The opponent may quite possibly call you on it by keeping his E and going vertical just long enough to force you to go nose down or stall. At this point, in a same-plane duel, of course, the easiest course is to reduce throttle, and work to get in the saddle.

Switching to E-fighting/roping based on what the opponent does on the merge also tends to defuse some of the uh, "funkier" merging technique you see sometimes, those involving flat turns and the like.

I find that on a series of merges and remerges, the fighter who turns using relatively tighter turns and higher Gs will often gain the first shooting opportunity against an opponent using relatively looser turns and lower Gs, but it will usually be tough shooting at high deflection. The fighter who turns using relatively less Gs will gain ground as the fight goes on and often be in a good position in terms of angle and E within a few turns.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 07:16:27 AM by BnZ »

Offline jerkins

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2008, 08:06:42 AM »
IMHO E fighting is not just BnZ.  It involves all aspects of bnz, tnb, and stall fighting.  To E fight properly you need to evolve the flying style and the fight goes on.  E fighting is managing E and using that to your advantage. This could be holding E or scrubbing E, it depends on the situation.  When you master managing your E to attain any state you want (ie hold E, scrub E), you are truly E fighting. Mastering E fighting involves methods of BnZ and TnB together to gain advantages.

As Agent360 said, it seems that when two very closely skilled pilots duel, they quickly end up in a rolling scissors fight.  The is a perfect example of E fighting.  Both are holding E or scrubbing E when neccesary.  I've had fights like this in the DA that last until both pilots run out of fuel.

Film analysis

109vf4u
Ok i watched the film and i noticed a few things.  First, Yenny, the only time you reduce throttle from wep is when diving in on odd deflection shots.  You had several chanced to reduce throttle and saddle up, but you didnt.  Instead you would zoom back up as high as possible and set up another pass.  There is nothing wrong with this except that fact that many times a quick kill is very important.  I think you did what you needed to do, made sunfan fight your fight. 

k4vk4
Many of the same comments as above.  You didnt reduce throttle, this time (same plane setup) it gave sunfan several shots.  This is a very costly mistake when fightin a k4, only takes one tater to ruin your day.  Throttle management (IMHO) is more important in the 109's than almost any other plane in the game.  In agent360 training films, he tells you where the throttle is at, and its constantly on the move.  The k4 has a huge engine, this often puts you too fast to make the 'optimum turn'.

Here is a interesting idea to try in order to see where the K4 stands on throttle management (credit again goes to Agent360 for this one).  Fly into the fight and 50% throttle and dont touch the throttle, dont even think about it, maybe even move it away from you.  You will be surprised at power you still have at this throttle level.   

Hope you can make sense of my rant here.  :salute
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Offline Yenny

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2008, 08:21:15 AM »

Here is a interesting idea to try in order to see where the K4 stands on throttle management (credit again goes to Agent360 for this one).  Fly into the fight and 50% throttle and dont touch the throttle, dont even think about it, maybe even move it away from you.  You will be surprised at power you still have at this throttle level.   


Thanks, I gotta test that to see how it works.
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2008, 12:25:30 PM »
However, I dunno what ya expect =) your attitude is not really constructive. Usually paint people a direction not just kick em when they ask for help.

Sorry Yenny, but most definitely he's right. And as others have mentioned before, all fights are in essence E fights, since you have to manage your E whether being fast or slow, or having positive or negative E.

Each fight is balance between E and angles. Ideally, when entering the fight, you should be slow enough to gain angles, but yet fast enough to keep other guy in guns range.


Offline Yenny

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Re: More question for TnB
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2008, 12:59:09 PM »
Sorry Yenny, but most definitely he's right. And as others have mentioned before, all fights are in essence E fights, since you have to manage your E whether being fast or slow, or having positive or negative E.

Each fight is balance between E and angles. Ideally, when entering the fight, you should be slow enough to gain angles, but yet fast enough to keep other guy in guns range.



I know but I also have fought strictly opponent that burns my E then BnZ me the entire time. I couldn't break it off all the time and eventually he works me down. I like to be able to beat this kind of fight too.
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