Author Topic: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war  (Read 2518 times)

Offline whiteman

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4200
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2008, 12:48:11 PM »
oh yea more PTO maps and F4U's :D

Offline Dichotomy

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12386
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 12:58:58 PM »
It must really suck to be an AvA staffer. :huh  There has been nothing but improvement from the gaming point of view to the player conduct, in the last couple of months. :salute  Yet, we (yes I do it also) find things to be undesireable and lobby for change. :t

Congratulations AvA staff  :aok  I believe that you have silenced the critics who called this a mini MA.  For the last couple of months the arena was even worthy of its past identifier, "Combat Theater"

There are excellent points of view on how the arena could advance, in this post and most others. :aok  I believe we are in need of a sticky = AvA Wishlist. 

For those who were "there" with me, it was a sometimes bitter experience,  :(  and voicing our opinions, was a step in the right direction.  I think that we can continue to deliver this kind of dialogue, with as good results in a future wishlist format. :cool:

Now, my complaint:  You need more staffers!   :rofl

I'd like to volunteer him ^^^^^

:D
JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline Stampf

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11491
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 12:59:43 PM »
It must really suck to be an AvA staffer. :huh  There has been nothing but improvement from the gaming point of view to the player conduct, in the last couple of months. :salute  Yet, we (yes I do it also) find things to be undesireable and lobby for change. :t

Congratulations AvA staff  :aok  I believe that you have silenced the critics who called this a mini MA.  For the last couple of months the arena was even worthy of its past identifier, "Combat Theater"

There are excellent points of view on how the arena could advance, in this post and most others. :aok  I believe we are in need of a sticky = AvA Wishlist. 

For those who were "there" with me, it was a sometimes bitter experience,  :(  and voicing our opinions, was a step in the right direction.  I think that we can continue to deliver this kind of dialogue, with as good results in a future wishlist format. :cool:

Now, my complaint:  You need more staffers!   :rofl

Well said Chilli.

Hats off to Mister Fork and all the Staff and players in the AvA for...endeavoring to persevere.  :aok
- Der Wander Zirkus -
- La Fabrica de Exitos -

Offline a4944

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 287
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 03:14:00 PM »
My original post only presents some tweaks to the current system.  It's very minor.  Lets look at the required changes if the community and staff see some promise.

  • Rolling plane set.  The prices are already set for all aircraft.  I assume this would be minimal work.  The commanders would just have to limit their selection to the planeset for the period.
  • Different maps.  Not required, but I thought the plan was to do this anyway.
  • Full money supply at beginning of each round.  Again, I don't think anything new would be required.  It would use the same system and probably be easier.  The first week seemed good as far as populating fields with aircraft.  Perhaps always give the commanders that amount at the beginning of each round.

I see a hole in the current system and this is a minor patch.  The hole being that if a side starts losing bad they will have pratically no aircraft whereas the other winning side would have many which could lead to some serious balance issues.  The mop-up phase of any game is not very much fun.

I am interested in others oprinions and or expansion of these specific tweaks.  One of my favorite parts of AvA is that it does evolve based on community input.  Community and/or staff can accept or reject these tweaks but I hope people take some time and thought to at least consider them.

Thanks,
Venom


Offline whiteman

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4200
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2008, 03:20:31 PM »
I like those ideas Venom. Winner of each week could get extra cash or 1 to 3 free deployments instead of hammering the loser for the week.

Offline Virage

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1097
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 03:52:12 PM »
What Shifty said.

JG11

Vater

Offline Halo46

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1155
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2008, 04:19:38 PM »
The war would still be there.  It would be a balanced war.  Is it realistic to have two or three airfields populated with aircraft?  Is it realistic to have the P51D against the 109F?  Where is the immersion in this? 

Every AF did not have fighter AC. Most AC were moved behind the frontlines and dispersed. P51D Vs 190F sounds like an advantage to the allies.

I'm open about the pricing as long as it is fair to both sides and develops balanced game play.  Last week was fun because it was balanced.  There were B17s and the 190s.  There were P51Ds and 109K4s.  Great and fair match-ups. 

It is currently fair to both sides. Last week was very unbalanced. Just because a side wants all late war uber rides does not make it balanced nor fair match ups. F4U? Come on. The Allied CO chose the plane set, address the concern to him/her.

Perhaps this is partially caused by the aircraft being in the rear fields and the very long flight times.  Having more aircraft at the forward fields should help resolve this issue.  I see no value in flying 2 to 3 sectors just to get out of your own territory and before any potential for an encounter with an enemy.


Long flight times? There is nothing realistic about upping and being in a fight two minutes later. That is why they have arcade games, and the other arenas that type of fight can readily be found. It is my understanding that the purpose in this "Battle" is for a "bit" more realism than the other arenas. I don't want to drive players away, but I do think they should understand and accept that a Battle Scenario will be different and, in my opinion, a little harder, and much different than the MAs. I for one do not come to AvA to fight an MA style game.

The rolling plane set and limited choices to the commanders would account for this.  You would have realistic match-ups which whould help with the immersion factor.  I want a realistic and fun 109F4 vs Spit matchup, not a 109F4 vs P51D macthup.

Those set ups are to be found between wars, and is just not a mandatory part of this particular scenario. Talk to your CO about plane choices.

The war would not change.  Only the availability and aircraft type available would change.  The war is a backdrop for the players.  This type of setup would not dictate any style of gameplay.  You want to hit a strategic target and help the war effort, then organize a raid and do it.  You want to intercept, then look for those raids.  You want a historical fighter vs fighter matchup then find a fight in the middle. 

Historical 1v1 match ups were very scarce after around 1914 or so. It is not realistic. Fighter sweeps? Organize one with the CO and other squads, you are sure to scare up a fight. Loiter over an enemy base and someone will eventually up, the reason they don't right now is because of the reason I stated before.

Perhaps some other incentives could be developed for winning besides bragging rights.  Perhaps the winning commander could have more influence in picking the next map and perhaps get a slighty better ride but a historical ride for the rolling planeset time period and one which would not destroy the balance.  I believe this was done with the capture war format.

I agree with you here, bud. but do not have an answer. I think the main point is this Battle Scenario was supposed to be different than the others. I get frustrated too after flying around for an hour chasing shadows, but I also feel I am feeling exactly what many pilots who risked their lives felt every time they strapped into an aircraft to go fight the enemy, only to return with a few hours gone and a sore bum. I am not arguing that your points are not valid, I just feel they are not taking into account that this particular scenario is supposed to be different. I just want the dump and jump tactics to stop...my pet peeve though.

I would say that your Commander is 100% responsible for all of these factors. You should talk to him about manning forward bases and choosing certain ac for next frame. There is no valid reason the entire scenario should be changed to the last one. I like diversity, and this adds some. I know some love base captures, some love bombing, and some love furballing, I just don't see a problem participating in something different, where I need to work a little harder, or have to set aside my preference for a couple hours a day, I still have fun despite the type of vehicle I am given or the odds for or against me (Though when they are overwhelming I may say something about it :D). I will be looking for you on my six.  :salute


Edit: Let me just add here, that I am enjoying this arena thoroughly, and I enjoy almost every single player in it. I don't espouse my own style of play, as Shifty has absolutely no idea of what I want from this arena, nor preventing players from participating as Mr. Thrila has implied in two posts now, I simply believe fly the scenario by the scenario's rules. I am sure a quick, historical match up can be found in the DA or elsewhere, if you simply ask someone, they will fly whatever ac you want to go against during the scenario. I want this arena to continue to improve, as every other poster does, and most of these changes I feel should be addressed in AARs or to respective COs. Lay out the rules, then fly by them. Other than the SNAFUs, I am having fun.  :salute Allied menace.. err I mean foes, and Axis brothers.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 04:44:58 PM by Halo46 »
Used to fly as Halo46, GRHalo, Hobo and Punk at the end.

Offline a4944

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 287
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2008, 05:06:19 PM »
Every AF did not have fighter AC. Most AC were moved behind the frontlines and dispersed. P51D Vs 190F sounds like an advantage to the allies.

It is currently fair to both sides. Last week was very unbalanced. Just because a side wants all late war uber rides does not make it balanced nor fair match ups. F4U? Come on. The Allied CO chose the plane set, address the concern to him/her.
 

Long flight times? There is nothing realistic about upping and being in a fight two minutes later. That is why they have arcade games, and the other arenas that type of fight can readily be found. It is my understanding that the purpose in this "Battle" is for a "bit" more realism than the other arenas. I don't want to drive players away, but I do think they should understand and accept that a Battle Scenario will be different and, in my opinion, a little harder, and much different than the MAs. I for one do not come to AvA to fight an MA style game.

Those set ups are to be found between wars, and is just not a mandatory part of this particular scenario. Talk to your CO about plane choices.

Historical 1v1 match ups were very scarce after around 1914 or so. It is not realistic. Fighter sweeps? Organize one with the CO and other squads, you are sure to scare up a fight. Loiter over an enemy base and someone will eventually up, the reason they don't right now is because of the reason I stated before.

I agree with you here, bud. but do not have an answer. I think the main point is this Battle Scenario was supposed to be different than the others. I get frustrated too after flying around for an hour chasing shadows, but I also feel I am feeling exactly what many pilots who risked their lives felt every time they strapped into an aircraft to go fight the enemy, only to return with a few hours gone and a sore bum. I am not arguing that your points are not valid, I just feel they are not taking into account that this particular scenario is supposed to be different. I just want the dump and jump tactics to stop...my pet peeve though.

I would say that your Commander is 100% responsible for all of these factors. You should talk to him about manning forward bases and choosing certain ac for next frame. There is no valid reason the entire scenario should be changed to the last one. I like diversity, and this adds some. I know some love base captures, some love bombing, and some love furballing, I just don't see a problem participating in something different, where I need to work a little harder, or have to set aside my preference for a couple hours a day, I still have fun despite the type of vehicle I am given or the odds for or against me (Though when they are overwhelming I may say something about it :D). I will be looking for you on my six.  :salute





I don't have a side this war.  I fly for Axis if the numbers are off.  I'm not on the private forums.  Just an experiment for this war.  My suggestion stands from my allied perspective and my axis perspective.  :aok

Venom

Offline Shifty

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9377
      • 307th FS
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2008, 05:33:30 PM »

Edit: Let me just add here, that I am enjoying this arena thoroughly, and I enjoy almost every single player in it. I don't espouse my own style of play, as Shifty has absolutely no idea of what I want from this arena, nor preventing players from participating as Mr. Thrila has implied in two posts now, I simply believe fly the scenario by the scenario's rules. I am sure a quick, historical match up can be found in the DA or elsewhere, if you simply ask someone, they will fly whatever ac you want to go against during the scenario. I want this arena to continue to improve, as every other poster does, and most of these changes I feel should be addressed in AARs or to respective COs. Lay out the rules, then fly by them. Other than the SNAFUs, I am having fun.  :salute Allied menace.. err I mean foes, and Axis brothers.

Before you get defensive, I'm not saying you personally want the arena to cater to you. I was trying to point out that's what we've had in the past. To do it again for any one group, is to again rob the arena of it's potential. When it's mentioned that a Group X needs to go to another arena to do their thing, that does nothing for this arena. People should be able to get their historical matchup fixes here, period.
As far as flying the scenario by the rules... Who is not doing that?

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline thrila

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3190
      • The Few Squadron
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2008, 06:18:33 PM »
Halo, i hope you can understand why it's not unreasonable for me to think you don't wish people to participate in AvA.  On several occasions you've told people to fly elsewhere because they have disliked an aspect of a setup.

Unfortunately a quick, historical match up cannot be found in the DA or other arenas.  In addition, i'm unable to mention grievances with my CO because i have no preference for either side, therefore i have no CO.  I don't see any harm in debating in a public forum.

"Willy's gone and made another,
Something like it's elder brother-
Wing tips rounded, spinner's bigger.
Unbraced tailplane ends it's figure.
One-O-nine F is it's name-
F is for futile, not for fame."

Offline OldBull

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 119
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2008, 10:30:04 AM »
Halo make a lot of good points in his posts and I am inclined to agree with most of his suggestions. Having said that, let me also say that what we are doing with this arena is  constantally evolving and for the most part evolving for the good, none of us are ever going to be completely satisfied with what we have and that is just human nature but I applaud the staff for their tireless efforts and the players for their civil and constructive comments.
 Now, if I may, let me offer this comment from a bombers preprespective, for us long flights are the norm, 30 minutes to get to the target are about average, I am the pilot, the bombardier and when necessary the gunner. A good calibration takes nearly a grid to set up. If I have to go the the gunners position I will lose my line and usually my calibration, if I don't go to the gun I am cannon fodder. While I understand the desire to "find a quick fight" your quick fight usually comes at my expense, now don't get me wrong I am not advocating a free ride to the target but for the opposition the be able to located me from the time I up puts us at a distinct disadvantage, now having said this I don't necessarily know what would be an equitable solution but is it possible that the darbar could be modified to pick me up at the time I cross into enemy territory? I am open to suggestions.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
OldBull
XO ~Avengers~

Offline Shifty

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9377
      • 307th FS
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2008, 10:39:41 AM »
Halo make a lot of good points in his posts and I am inclined to agree with most of his suggestions. Having said that, let me also say that what we are doing with this arena is  constantally evolving and for the most part evolving for the good, none of us are ever going to be completely satisfied with what we have and that is just human nature but I applaud the staff for their tireless efforts and the players for their civil and constructive comments.
 Now, if I may, let me offer this comment from a bombers preprespective, for us long flights are the norm, 30 minutes to get to the target are about average, I am the pilot, the bombardier and when necessary the gunner. A good calibration takes nearly a grid to set up. If I have to go the the gunners position I will lose my line and usually my calibration, if I don't go to the gun I am cannon fodder. While I understand the desire to "find a quick fight" your quick fight usually comes at my expense, now don't get me wrong I am not advocating a free ride to the target but for the opposition the be able to located me from the time I up puts us at a distinct disadvantage, now having said this I don't necessarily know what would be an equitable solution but is it possible that the darbar could be modified to pick me up at the time I cross into enemy territory? I am open to suggestions.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers


A reasonable suggestion. Not having a chance to research it this morning I'm going to WAG this...
I believe in WWII both German, and British radar were able to dectect buildups of large formations while still in their own friendly territory.
The difference in reality and AHII is that the interceptors didn't have the range to cross over and attack the formations while they were forming over their own friendly lines.
Plus in reality every plane lost is lost for good, you don't have planes and pilots that automatucally come back to life so it makes going over and attacking them in their own territory too costly.
I'm making this statement from memory, so I may be off.

I'm not sure if darbar can be deactived to only friendly areas of the map. If it could I would suggest setting to where enemy units could still be detected one sector deep in their own territory.
Good points OB.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline a4944

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 287
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2008, 12:51:58 PM »
I agree with the limited dar bar also.  It would be nice if it went only to neighboring grids of a field so you could not see deep into enemy territory but you could see into no-mans land. 

Venom

Offline WWM

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 278
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2008, 09:22:46 AM »
  I believe that you have silenced the critics who called this a mini MA. 












mini MA  :P
Jay12

Offline sparow

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
      • http://249sqn.wordpress.com/
Re: Combine best of old capture war and strategic war
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2008, 05:06:34 PM »
Hello all, <S>

I've been thinking for some time in what tweaks could be done to improve even more this format so well devised by AvA Staff. I must say that I firmly believe that this new direction in AvA is the right one and the only that may attract more new players. So, good or bad suggestions they might be, the actual setup works and, if it ain't broken, why change it? Only to make it even better, IMHO. So, I'll just throw a couple of ideas for your analisis.

First, the money management issue...The idea of a starting budget is great but a couple of factors could be brought in to perfect it even further: one, strats and objects should have value, too. That should be considered, for both sides. "Countries" produce money, as long as they have their strats and cities working and in the direct measure of their abilities to function. That should enter the equation too. Also, there could be some reward, financially speaking, for the damage inflicted on the other side strats. Finally, there should be made a balance, for both sides, between number of sorties made - by plane model - and sorties landed. This ratio could then be applyed as a correction factor, rewarding the best management of aircraft and penalizing the side with worse aircraft management, as an asset.

Secondly, the issue of ground war and field capture. There is no war without ground grabbing - I know, there are, just not ww2 - and without ground vehicles...I feel a bit unfair that ground vehicle fans are almost excluded from the current setup. Also, not gaining terrain and push the frontline one side or the other, is a bit weird...Maybe we could have a new approach here: dramatically increase the number of troops needed for capture - to a number between 60 and 100 - of targets, specify different numbers needed for different targets - 60 for a VB, 100 for an airfield, maybe more for a city - and allow the capture of strats and cities, once again, for resource capture purposes.

Thirdly, the assymetric victory conditions and the historical matchups. This could be thought to allow for more historically accurate matchups during the duration of the war, avoiding the appearance of odd-birds in the setups. Also, assymetric victory conditions could lead to different and more historically correct tactics.

Just ideas.

<Salute>
Sparow
249 Sqn RAF "Gold Coast"
Consistently beeing shot down since Tour 33 (MA) and Tour 8  (CT/AvA)

Visit us at http://249sqn.wordpress.com/