Wesley Clark: Obama Lap Dog & a Disgrace in General

[Toad]

Pleeze! Bush's F-102 unit? He barely got there before he got his father to use his influence to get him a early release.

You are wrong, sir. I have posted on this before; if you will take the time to visit this old thread and read it, I think it will clear up many of your misconceptions.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,108641.msg1124661.html#msg1124661
 

If your in flight training then you know that the military requires obligated service for flight training.

Class 75-04, Willie.

 

And that includes the National Guard! And since your too young to remember let me remind you;

I am not too young to remember. I flew reconnaissance missions off the coast of VietNam shortly after the war ended. Only one of my classmates set foot in VietNam; he was a C-130 pilot that arrived at his unit during the Saigon evac. They didn't have time to qualify him in country so he was used to shoot flares out the back door on approach to spoof manpads.

 

During VietNam it was very difficult if not impossible to get into the National Guard unless your father was a CEO or a member of Congress.

Really? The year I went to UPT there were ~ 330 ANG UPT slots. That year 4 of them were filled. There was one ANG student in my class. The simple fact is that not many people knew about the ANG UPT program at that time. Had I known, I most definitely would have gone ANG because that way you KNEW what airplane you would be flying. A very good friend of mine got an F-4 that way. In my entire class of 55, there were only 4 F-4 assignments.
 
 

And if your in flight training you know that OCS, flight training and the other schools that a new officer goes through takes nearly 15 months. How long did Jr. serve? 15 months.

Once again, you need to do your homework.

Bush’s National Guard Timeline


Major dates during Gov. George W. Bush’s service in the Texas National Guard, according to official records from the National Guard Bureau:

Jan. 19, 1968: Bush completes Air Force officer qualifications test in New Haven, Conn., while attending Yale University.

May 27, 1968: Walter B. Staudt, commander of the Texas National Guard, interviews Bush and recommends he be accepted for pilot training. Bush’s application for enlistment in the Guard is approved.

June 1968: Bush receives bachelor of arts degree from Yale.

July 12, 1968: A three-member Federal Recognition Examining Board reports Bush is qualified for promotion to 2nd Lieutenant in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron.

July 14, 1968: Bush attends basic military training in San Antonio.

Aug. 25, 1968: Completes basic military training.

Nov. 26, 1968 — Dec. 2, 1969: Attends undergraduate pilot training with the 3559th Student Squadron, Moody Air Force Base, Ga. He is trained to fly standard Air Force aircraft, including the T-31, T-37, and T-39.  <I bet they meant to say " T-41, T-37 and T-38".>

Dec. 29, 1969 — Jan. 20, 1970: Trainee, 111th Squadron, Ellington Air Force Base, near Houston.

Jan. 11, 1970: Assigned flying duty as a pilot of F-102 fighter interceptors, 111th Squadron at Ellington.

Aug. 24, 1970: Three-member board recommends 2nd Lt. Bush for promotion to first lieutenant. Bush later receives the promotion.

Sept. 6, 1972: Bush’s request for a three-month transfer to 187th TAC Recon Group, Montgomery, Ala., is approved so he can work as political director for a Senate campaign.

Sept. 18, 1973: Bush receives permission to transfer to reserve status to attend Harvard Business School.

Oct. 1, 1973: Receives honorable discharge. "

[Toad]

   Yup if only we had a 3rd choice. Once again we will have to choose the lesser of two evils.

If you mean what you say, Barr/Libertarian, Baldwin/Constitutional and Paul/Write-in choices are available.

ANY of those would make a better President than Obama or McCain.

So when will you vote your conscience instead of for the lesser of two weasels?

[Toad]

Neither one of these guys will make any ground shaking changes in your life.

IMO you are quite wrong here as well.

Obama will likely replace at least two SC justices. Odds are they will be two of the most liberal justices on the court. With McCain there would a chance to get a less liberal and less activist/constitutionally inventive judge than the one being with replaced. With Obama the odds heavily favor replacement with a judge MORE liberal and more activist/constitutionally inventive than the one being replace.

If you don't think that Obama's choices will not cause ground shaking change at some point, I strongly disagree.

[Eagler]

So when will you vote your conscience instead of for the lesser of two weasels?

when the country is on better footing and I could stand and the country can afford to have the greater of two weasels, obama, to win.

I do not think this election is the time to throw away my vote

[DDogs98]

Fascinating.

Isn't the implication here about the role of 'Commander and Chief', not president?  I see two roles because of my own association with the Military.

As a veteran, the son of a combat veteran, an employee of a company that serves the military community and as an American that is concerned about the ever-increasing role of the US Military as the world's police force, I am very interested in how either man will act as the boss of the most powerful military force the earth has ever seen.

Most of the people I grew up with and served with have a vested interest in our most-senior leader being a natural and skillful diplomat, a gentleman, and one who places the highest value on the lives of those entrusted to him.  When our military members and those of our allies are sent to harm's way it must only be because diplomacy has failed.  First.  These are not toy soldiers.  They are men and women with families and most are reservists with the same pursuits as the rest of us.

That's what I will watch for in the upcoming debates and the platforms of the two men in question.  I will say that I am pleased that the General officer in question showed his political spots and that Obama put out the stiff arm.  And that is the nicest thing I've ever said about the good Senator.

Raider

[alskahawk]

From Wik; At the height of the Vietnam War, Bush was accepted into the Texas Air National Guard in May 1968, despite scoring the lowest acceptable passing grade on the pilot's written aptitude test.[22][23][24] This was at a time when more than ten thousand Air National Guard personnel, many fighter pilots, were called to active duty to serve in Vietnam.[25] After training, he was assigned to duty in Houston, flying Convair F-102s out of Ellington Air Force Base.[26] Critics allege Bush was favorably treated because of his father's political standing, citing his lack of combat service and his irregular attendance.[27] The United States Department of Defense released all the records of Bush's Texas Air National Guard service, which remain in its official archives.[23] Though not accepted to the University of Texas School of Law in 1970,[28] he accepted a transfer to the Alabama Air National Guard in 1972 to work on a Republican senate campaign, and in October 1973 he was discharged from the Texas Air National Guard, almost eight months early without being called to active duty to serve in Vietnam, to attend Harvard Business School.[29] While at Harvard, Bush completed his six-year service obligation in the inactive reserve.[30]

During this time Bush had multiple accounts of substance abuse.[31] In one instance, Bush was arrested near his family's summer home in Kennebunkport, Maine for driving under the influence of alcohol at the age of thirty on September 4, 1976. He pled guilty, was fined US$150, and had his Maine driver's license suspended until 1978.[32] Bush then attended Harvard University, where he earned his MBA,[33] and entered the oil industry in Texas not long afterward. end;

 Mr. Bush spent much of his service in college, not actually serving. Also the Texas Air National guard was known as a haven for the children of CEO's, Congressmen etc. Now as someone who was around during that time do you really think that you could have gotten into the National Guard? Avoided Viet Nam? Could you could have gotten the favorable treatment G.W. Bush did? Now answer honestly! What I would like to know is how many flight hours did he get while in the Texas Guard. Probably not much. His DD214 (or the officer equivalent) That I would like to see. What was his retention code? Did they fix that too? As far as his drug bust. He was lucky that the policy wasn't updated until 1979.
 OK now lets say for arguments sake that Lt. Bush's service was all good. How does that compare (which was the original point) with either McCain, Clark or Kerry? Does military service really mean a better Commander in Chief? Mmm Carter comes to mind. Flowed with every cause that came along. Wouldn't have wanted to follow him into combat. He lacked leadership. Which is my problem with President Bush. Not a leader, never was.

 The National Guard is an honorable force and to have it used as a dumping ground for some elitist frat boy is a disgrace.

                                        

[alskahawk]

IMO you are quite wrong here as well.

Obama will likely replace at least two SC justices. Odds are they will be two of the most liberal justices on the court. With McCain there would a chance to get a less liberal and less activist/constitutionally inventive judge than the one being with replaced. With Obama the odds heavily favor replacement with a judge MORE liberal and more activist/constitutionally inventive than the one being replace.

If you don't think that Obama's choices will not cause ground shaking change at some point, I strongly disagree.

 Prior to 2000 election liberals made nearly same predictions about G. Bush. Still waiting.

[alskahawk]

If you mean what you say, Barr/Libertarian, Baldwin/Constitutional and Paul/Write-in choices are available.

ANY of those would make a better President than Obama or McCain.

So when will you vote your conscience instead of for the lesser of two weasels?

 Definitely not a third party. Voting for a third party candidate may make you feel good but fact is a 3rd party White House would be very ineffective. My thought; Give us two good candidates that will at least try to fix things and not feed us the same divisive party BS.

[DiabloTX]

Seems to me U.S. Grant was one of the greatest generals ever.

As a president he was one of the worst ever.

Go figure.

[alskahawk]

 Don't make a big deal about Bush being recommended by a 3 member board for Lt. Promotion at junior officer level is almost automatic. Most marginal JO's get recommended. Now if he had made O5 or above that might be a selling point.

[AKIron]

Don't make a big deal about Bush being recommended by a 3 member board for Lt. Promotion at junior officer level is almost automatic. Most marginal JO's get recommended. Now if he had made O5 or above that might be a selling point.

Pretty sure Commander in Chief ranks up there at the top somewhere. You sold yet?

[alskahawk]

Seems to me U.S. Grant was one of the greatest generals ever.

As a president he was one of the worst ever.

Go figure.

 Ah yes often called Useless Grant. His generalship was often questioned during the war. Seems he got whupped a few times. But he was tenacious. Forgot about him.

[DiabloTX]

Patton got questioned, too.  Beat up a couple of times as well.  There is no achievement without risk, no success without failure.

[alskahawk]

Pretty sure Commander in Chief ranks up there at the top somewhere. You sold yet?

 And your equating an election (to president) to a military achievement?

 (O5 level advancement is much more scrutinised than O3 level. Someone actually looks at the officer record, its not a automatic approval)

[alskahawk]

Patton got questioned, too.  Beat up a couple of times as well.  There is no achievement without risk, no success without failure.

 Ya these two were similar in some ways. Put Patton in 1862 he could have been another Grant. IMO better.