It's Just Not Fair!!!

[Pongo]

Originally posted by Toad




Never happened, right? Photoshopped?

Did that 102 scramble from SE asia and beat the Bear to the eastern sea board from the White Sea area?
You have justified the presense of the US airforce in Iceland and Greenland. But not in Texas.

[Airhead]

Originally posted by Tumor
Whats all this **** about the NG not going to Vietnam?  My father was in the NG, he also did a year in Vietnam.... and my family suffered because of it for the next 20yrs.  There was plenty of NG that got activated and sent to Vietnam.  Joining the NG gave you a "chance" of not going, but hardly better than civilians.  At LEAST those who went NG (generally) took the oath.  Taking anything away from them, calling them draft dodgers is really nothing more than showing your own well practiced stupidity.

Tumor your Dad must have gone over early in the conflict then (I'm guessing) because Guard positions generally guaranteed a stateside billet.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Pongo
You have justified the presense of the US airforce in Iceland and Greenland. But not in Texas.

This will probably come as a shock to you, but back then and even to this day, we station Interceptor units all around the periphery of the CONUS.

See, those 102's in Iceland would have a real long intercept if, say, Soviet Air Forces staged out of Cuba and came up through the Gulf of Mexico.

You did know that TU-95's did land and take-off from Cuba? And you undoubtedly know there was a huge gap in radar coverage South of New Orleans/Houston out over the Gulf? A gap so big that response time would be extremely short? I don't think Iceland-based F-102's could get there in time.

Heck...... we had interceptors on our shared border with Canada! Go figure!

[Toad]

Originally posted by Westy
[ As for the few who vainly try to spin the attacks on Bush' record as an attack on all NG personal, then and now, all I can wonder is just how good your reading comprehension is.  

Sixpence:

You can debate different issues between Bush and Kerry, but try to smear the guy who actually served in vietnam from the guy who dodged it

John Kerry:

Kerry said, “‘I’ve never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard

Quoted by MZ: -"The National Guard and the Reserves were something of a joke. Everyone knew it. Books have been written about it. Maybe things changed dramatically by 1972, two years after I got my discharge, but I kind of doubt it.
"-

I don't think you have to "spin" anything. If you read and comprehend what these guys posted, it's pretty clear. That's what draws the response.

[Westy]

" I don't think Iceland-based F-102's could get there in time. "

I agree.

And an F-102 flown by Bush certainly wouldn't have been there either fending off the bad guys as he was off doing some political shilling.  Ultimately being dropped from being able to fly for having not shown up for his flight physical - let alone much else..


" If you read and comprehend what these guys posted..

It's quite CLEAR to me that the context is Vietnam era NG duty and how it was used by the influential as a safe haven for thier progeny.

[Toad]

Westy, I think you need to do a bit more research in to the Unit history at Ellington.

The 147th was then tasked with training ANG pilots to fly the F-102 and redesignated a combat crew training squadron. 1971 saw the arrival of the McDonnell Douglas F-101B Voodoo to the 147th FIG. The F-101 did not replace the F-102 it was just an addition to the role of combat crew training. Now the 147th was tasked with training of aircrews in the F-102 and F-101.

The implications this has are probably not evident to those who haven't been in the military and watched a unit's mission change. This is particularly true in the ANG.

There are expenses associated with retraining that can make it cheaper for the Guard to just let trained pilots go rather than re-train them in a new aircraft. Bush wasn't an instructor pilot; he didn't have enough hours in type. Most ANG instructors get their time in type in Active Duty service; it's a rare "guard only" pilot that ever flies that much in his first 5-7 years.

The 147th's F-102 alert mission wound down steadily, requiring fewer plain old 102 pilots. What they needed was 101 and to a lesser extent, 102 Instructors.

Hope this helps.

[Toad]

Originally posted by crowMAW
Toad, I seem to recall that you've been a jet jocky...are 2 hops a month enough to be proficient in a vehicle like the F102?

 

I doubt it. However, you really need to compare his totals with others in his unit. There are more things that impact available flying time than just how many times a pilot shows up.

My UPT class stood down from flying for one entire month due to a fuel shortage in ATC. REALLY not a good situation for students just learning to fly high performance jets. I guess that was my fault?

In '76, many, many SAC copilots were reassigned to non-flying duties because there simply wasn't enough flying time to go around. It got so bad that they eventually assigned T-37's and T-38's for SAC co-pilot use only. Clearly, the co-pilots were shirkers, right?

ANG units have amounts of time, "blocks", that they are tasked to fly. If a unit has too many pilots, time can be spread pretty thin. The reverse happens as well.

In short, I don't think you can make the assessment you are trying to make UNLESS you know how much time the "average" Lt. in Bush's unit was getting during the same period.

Maybe he got way more than average. Could be, but neither of us know.

He may have got far less than average. Do you know?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Westy

It's quite CLEAR to me that the context is Vietnam era NG duty and how it was used by the influential as a safe haven for thier progeny.

That's a gross oversimplification and generalization.

Are you going to make the case the EVERY Guard member during VN was progeny of the influential?

Or even the case that the majority of the Guard during VN was made up of progeny of the influential?

That's hogwash and you know it.

It was indeed a relatively "safe haven" for many of the sons of the politically connected/wealthy/influential. No one disputes that. Bush probably did have "political help" getting in to the unit. So? As I said upthread, now show me how the draft-age sons of the other 434 US Representatives and 100 Senators spent the war. I think you'll find a common thread if you do.

OTOH, those Guard units that held the "fortunate sons" also had a legitimate mission. To castigate the entire Guard on the basis that it provided a somewhat safer service for the relatively few Guard members that were "fortunate sons" is a slam on the Guard.

Kerry should never have made that association. It cheapens his image, IMO.

For the rest of yas casting the aspersion that somehow Guard service wasn't "serving"..... it just makes you look......... uninformed. I'll take a guy that served in the easiest most lax Guard unit over one who ran off to Canada any day.

Just my .02.

[Westy]

"That's a gross oversimplification and generalization. Are you going to make the case the EVERY Guard member during VN was progeny of the influential? Or even the case that the majority of the Guard during VN was made up of progeny of the influential? That's hogwash and you know it. "


 And there's that "spin" again Toad.  The hogwash is your trying to make it sound lie myself and others are saying ALL , most or even a majority of NG people were hideouts from Vietnam. You and a few others try to make it sound like I'm are critisising all NG members who served as bad you. You claim I'm grossly generalising (I"m not. I feel I"ve been pretty specific) while at the same time I do beleive you're trying to make things simplistic. Black or white, no "give" and it's "all" or "none."

 The truth is readily appearant. The influential did use several means to shield thier own and tucking them into a stateside cushy ANG job was just one.    Is that a major problem? No.  I have always been a proponant that the Vietnam "war" was a bad call by the US and would support any avoidance in particopating.
 
 Powel himself said it pretty well in his autobiography, My American Journey....

 "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed and so many professional athletes (who were probably healthier than any of us)managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegience to their country."


 IMO the issue comes to a boiling point because Bush has been less than honest with the American public.  He has waved and touted his ANG time as much more than it really was and even his own father attacked his opponent (Clinton) back in 1992 for dodging service.  (and fwiw I think Clinton was a weazle too)

 But Bob Herb says it best (short and sweet....),  "Mr. Bush's experience in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam years is especially relevant today because it throws a brighter spotlight on who he really is. He has walked a charmed road, with others paying the price of his journey, every step of the way."

op ed piece

 IMO Bush has left a large body count behind him over the last two years;internal resignations, destroying American foreign relations & credibility, loss of civil rights, outsourcing of thousands o  jobs and with lower &  middle class American lives.  The body count is rising and that's on a daily basis.

[guttboy]

Toad,

Should I know Doc...the name rings a bell....Was he at the 16th SOS?

Regards,

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by guttboy
BTW.....HOW BOUT DEM PATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to leave the room during the 4th quarter because I just couldnt take the stress of it all....LOL

It was good to see, especially after all the franchise has been through. I've seen every debacle/scandal since 1976. Two in three years is sweet. Careful what you say in here though, the raider fans are still crying about the snow game:lol

[Toad]

Doc was one of our "gang of four" best friends in pilot training. We had a lot of "interesting" times together in UPT.

Yeah, you should probably know him. He did a lot of stuff in the black 130's, both the MC's and the AC's. He was a squadron commander down there but I can't remember which squadron. He'd have probably made his star, except he fell in love with a woman and essentially gave up his career for her.

Got out, went to Northwest, stood up out of bed one morning and died pretty much instantly of a brain aneurysm.

An absolutely great guy, one of my best friends.

[Toad]

Westy,

Bush's Guard service was no better, no worse and not really any different than thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of others during that period. Yet some here continually try to make it seem different.

So when you diss Bush for his service, you're using an awfully wide brush. You're generalizing, IMO.

Look, the guy got an honorable discharge. That alone gives the lie to those that accuse him of being a "deserter" or "AWOL". AFAIK or have been shown, there's not even an Article 15 in his record of missing any drill. If those that pontificate about desertion actually understood the military justice system, this lack of an Article 15 would silence them. The fact that they chatter on only highlights their lack of knowledge.

We agree that the influential tried to shield their sons. Let's see.. there's a tradition that dates back to the birth of the Republic, continues on up through the Civil War into WW1 and certainly into WW2, Korea and VietNam. So? Even Powell knows that it's a tradition. Congressmen extol the necessity for war while shielding their sons from duty. Rich man buy their sons deferrments in one way or another. It's hypocritical and despicable but it hasn't changed and I suspect it won't.

"Touted his Guard time as more than it really was".

Huh? Do please explain. He said he was in the Guard, did his duty, got his Honorable Discharge. Just like tens of thousands of other boys during the VN war. Where's the exaggeration? Quotes as examples, please.

OH, BTW, there's a HUGE difference between Bush's service and Clinton's lack of same. I think the senior Bush called it correctly.
 
"He has walked a charmed road, with others paying the price of his journey, every step of the way."

Isn't that pretty much true of every rich man's son?  

C'mon, Westy. You're smarter than that. People resign from every administration; you need look no farther than that of Bush's predecessor.

Destroying American foreign relations? Really? It's all over now? In many ways, the air is clear now and the opportunity exists for more meaningful and realistic relations. There's no doubt about where some folks stand now, is there? And, if some of those relations that were "destroyed" were the best we could do for friends, I'm glad it's over. Sometimes divorce is a good thing.

Loss of civil rights? What, the Patriot Act? There is a war on you know, the Supreme Court still rules and the Patriot Act has to be renewed by Congress prior to the end of 2005. We'll survive.

Outsourcing thousands of jobs? When do you think this started or is it an all new phenomenom under Bush? Opponents of NAFTA were warning about this years ago. However, it's simply inevitable due to the nature of the present global economy. You go ahead and convince someone that they'd be better off building widgets in the good ole USA for $20 when they can produce them in China for $2. Yeah, that's Bush's fault alright.

Guess what else? No matter who wins in 2004, you're still going to see jobs going overseas. Know where all the "call centers" are going? Ask Zip where Sprint is moving their operators. Bush's fault? Nope, the nature of the business.

I probably won't be voting for Bush this time around. But it'll be on the WMD issue, not this baloney.

[crowMAW]

Originally posted by Toad
However, you really need to compare his totals with others in his unit.

Maybe he got way more than average. Could be, but neither of us know.

He may have got far less than average. Do you know?

Nope...that is a valid point.  And given the transition of the 111th FIS to a training squadron for the F101B it is possible that since he was not an IP there is good reason for him not to fly.  Still in his 4th year he mustered for drill only half as much as he should have and about the same the next year.  Did he make the time up?  Probably.  Did he serve at his convenience?  Sure looks that way to me.

[Toad]

On 6 May 1971 the unit received F-101F fighter interceptors and became the training center for all Air Guard interceptors. In August 1974, after 14 years of service, the unit's F-102s were retired, but the unit maintained a full fleet of F-101s.

Now how does that match up with the years you question? Any data on how fast the phase-out of the F-102 alert committment happened?